Control/Dimming Picking out a new light board.
- Thread starterMillburyAuditorium
- Start date
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
I have been looking for technical drawings of the theatre since I started and I have failed at finding them :/ But if you look at the videos I posted a few pages back and compare to the size of props and people, you should get a good idea, for now until I can get some pictures. I think that when I get pictures it will change a lot of things, I am not the best at explaining :/ I will try to dig up some pictures from the internet, or my computer now.
And thank you for being nice to me. Everyone started somewhere : )
OK, my writing may not have been as clear as it should have been
... what specific colors (manufacturer/number) of gels are you looking to get?-Fred
kiwitechgirl
Well-Known Member
Look, don't get me wrong - I think that it's awesome that you're interested in lighting, and also that you're going to a school which specialises in performing arts so you can learn more. You're right, we all started somewhere and for a lot of us, I suspect that was at school - certainly was for me! I think what we're all a little concerned about is that while your motives are excellent - upgrading gear is NEVER a bad thing! - you may not have enough knowledge to make quite the right purchases, and so future generations may not benefit as much as you'd like them to. You never know when you're going to get a kid at the school who has a parent who is a professional lighting technician, or whatever....so I think what people are trying to make you see is that perhaps you need to enlist some professional help; coming here to CB is a great start, but it's very difficult for us to advise you having not seen your space. Whether you do things differently or not, you can always benefit from good advice. Find a local professional theatre and ask one of their techs to come look at your space and give you some advice as to what would best serve your needs. We often get requests of this sort from local schools and we're always happy to oblige. In the meantime, I have a couple more questions for you! So here goes...
What exactly are you expecting the gels to do - make your lights brighter? And why do you not want fresnels with gel in them - given that that is pretty much the industry standard way of lighting a stage (OK, not always fresnels, but generic units of one sort or another). The old-school method would use red, blue and green units to mix colour for front/toplight but mostly you'll find these days that that kind of colour mixing is limited mostly to cyc lights. If we want colour punch, we use parcans with saturated gel colours in them. So, in terms of fixtures that I favour for washing the stage with colour, my answer would be fresnels and PCs for general lighting, and parcans for colour punch.
Last edited:
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
OK, my writing may not have been as clear as it should have been
-Fred
ooh, Well red, blue, and green. I was simply hoping that it would make the intensity of the color strip lights we have better because there are pretty much not noticeable unless no other lights are on. Basically our strip light is 18 halogen bulbs next to each other with a gel in front of each, in a pattern, R,B,G,R,B,G etc. And I was hoping on using the gels that I got for the spotlights that worked really really good, nice dark color and was very noticeable, in the two color strip lights we have to just see if it was the old gels in them that made the colors so faint. But if the gels we use for the spots dont work, either a new color strip light fixture, or just forget the strip lights and just get more fresnels with color gels.
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
I am expecting the gels I use for the spotlights, which I have said work wonderfully with the spots, will work with the strip color lights we have to make the color more intense because you cant even see it when other lights are on. And I was aiming away from fresnels and more at a strip light because the whole unit, with 18 lights would be on only one dimmer, and they would be right next to each other so it would be easier to color blend.
And when I say Full Cyc, I meant these, These are what gives most lighting to our stage, besides the spotlights. Don't know if I am using "Full Cyc" in the wrong way.
Far Cyc > Fixtures > Theatrical Equipment > Lighting Management Systems > All Leviton Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products
I have been saying Full Cyc and not Far Cyc haven't I? ^^'
kiwitechgirl
Well-Known Member
Right - now I understand! Given that all 18 lamps of your striplights are on one single dimmer, they're going to be pretty low-powered and a new gel isn't going to make any difference to that, because you're simply not getting enough punch from the lights themselves. My advice to you, given this, is not to even try and colour blend the striplights; put one colour of gel in the lot of them and use that for a single colour wash. The reason the gel worked well in your spots is because they are much higher powered and produce a LOT more light. If you've got cyc units, use them to create a different coloured wash or two and then use your spots (presuming you mean profile lanterns, sometimes called Lekos) to bring in frontlight so the actors' faces are visible.
I want to once again stress that we are happy to help if you are willing to hang in there with us. We have a better feel for what you know now and will be happy to lead you through the steps to a better understanding of what you have and how to use it better. But we continue to need more information to really give you good advice. If you can just sit down with a pencil and sketch the space, use something like microsoft paint, or even give it a shot in Google's Sketchup (doesn't have to be 3-d... but it's a great skill for you to learn anyway). Just sketch a general layout of the room and write in distances that would be a huge help to this discussion. It's very hard to get any sense of scale from watching a video. Understanding distances is critical to understanding what you need.
Secondly take a camera and take as many pictures as you can: the auditorium as a whole, the stage, backstage, dimmer rack, light board, light fixtures, lighting positions. Give us a tour of the theater.
Not knowing what model of striplight you have and what it's max wattage rating is... you should look into if they can handle more powerful lamps. This would lead to separating them into three circuits (R, G, and B). Depending on how large of lamps you can put in this should help you get some color out of them and help with your downlight. At the high school I used to teach at, they were using standard 100 watt household lamps in the strips. I got the money to replace them with 100 watt halogen pars (like the kind you screw into an outdoor porch security light) they cost about $6 each so it was expensive but the increase in output was amazing. Half the light was being wasted traveling in all different directions, now I had a focused beam on stage.
Again is there anywhere you can go to in order to see how another facility does these things? You'll be amazed at what you can learn at your local community theater.
Secondly take a camera and take as many pictures as you can: the auditorium as a whole, the stage, backstage, dimmer rack, light board, light fixtures, lighting positions. Give us a tour of the theater.
Not knowing what model of striplight you have and what it's max wattage rating is... you should look into if they can handle more powerful lamps. This would lead to separating them into three circuits (R, G, and B). Depending on how large of lamps you can put in this should help you get some color out of them and help with your downlight. At the high school I used to teach at, they were using standard 100 watt household lamps in the strips. I got the money to replace them with 100 watt halogen pars (like the kind you screw into an outdoor porch security light) they cost about $6 each so it was expensive but the increase in output was amazing. Half the light was being wasted traveling in all different directions, now I had a focused beam on stage.
Again is there anywhere you can go to in order to see how another facility does these things? You'll be amazed at what you can learn at your local community theater.
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Yeah, I was thinking it was the power. I have been looking and looking, and finally found this, I don't think its the same one we have, but its close. And this one has 8 instead of 18.
Altman Lighting, Co., Inc.
And that is meant for just white light. But when they were installed, color gels where put in them, so we don't have any real color lighting at all xD.
I will consider some permenant fresnels with gels.
And as far as the Far Cycs go, the only ones we have are two of these, so I dont think we can use them for color, and we need them because they supply most of the stage with light.
Far Cyc > Fixtures > Theatrical Equipment > Lighting Management Systems > All Leviton Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products
P.S. Before I go to fresnels with color, do you think something like this could substitute or do you think I would have the same trouble with brightness? As for cost I think it would be the same as buying two of these instead of 9 new fresnels, three of each color. I dont know if I need 3 sets of each color, but anytime I have done something with color I have done in sets of three :/.
Altman Lighting, Co., Inc.
But then again, I need to consider 16 25 dollar 4" roundels. Probably will be better to go with the fresnels : P
Sorry for two of the links, The site was weird, the URL didn't change even though the page did.
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Hi there, Yeah As kiwitechgirl said, I think its the power. Could be that they are using to low power bulbs. If you go to the Altman sight I linked to, then products, then strip lights, then go to the bottom of that page and that is close to what we have. I will go ahead now and make a sketch of the auditroium, but I can't give correct measurments for now.
I called the school to see if I could come in this week to setup the board instead of next week, and they said they were buffing the floor so no. X_X Janitors and there floors
So I will be in there with a camera hopefully next monday and give you a little tour. As for going to another facility, I could go over to Saint Johns school and look at there auditorium, also I could ask the Hanover Theatre if I could have a little tour.
P.S. If you look at this video again, the red tint is from a front spot with a gel in it, on about 25 percent, and then at the end it gets brighter and the most noticable is the sighn that says Bedside Mannor gets bright, that is from the rear Full Cyc.
(It is supposed to be dark in most of the videos on this play because most of them in a "T.V. show" and resetting props would of been way to hard.)
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Okay, here's a really rough sketch of the theatre, sizes are not really correct but if gives a simple representation of the stage. I'm not the best at making images : P But it gives a sort of idea.
Here is the theatre (The spotlights go along the whole width of the stage and of course arent straight, but I kinda messed them up : P)
Here are the lights above the stage. Couldn't fit it into the other pic.
Here is the theatre (The spotlights go along the whole width of the stage and of course arent straight, but I kinda messed them up : P)
Here are the lights above the stage. Couldn't fit it into the other pic.
So is it a grid above the stage, not a fly system?
To start I would say you need many more instruments above the stage. It is standard to be able to divide the stage into 3 sections SL, CT, SR and also US and DS some people add a mid stage brake into the mix. If you go with individual lights (not strips) it would be standard to use 2 instruments (a warm and a cool), some people like to do a 3 color wash. For your purpose right now I would stick with 2. Even if you go with strips it is still standard to brake the stage into SL, CT, SR and DS, US. When using strips it all depends on what type you get, how many lamps they have, and their physical measurements. How high are you electrics/grip (depending)?
Far as front light goes it is also standard to split the stage into SL, CT, SR, US and DS. With a warm and cool for each area.
To help clarify what I mean by these areas. Not to insult you by any means but just incase you don't know
SR=Stage Right (standing on stage looking at the audience)
CT=Center Stage
SL=Stage Left (standing on stage looking at the audience)
US=Up Stage (farthest away from the audience)
DS=Down Stage (Closest to the audience)
Also it may take more than one instrument to light each area fully. We have 2 warms and 2 cools spaced out to just get SL and this is mirrored SR with only 1 warm and 1 cool in the center. This a crude diagram
SR ---1 2----3 4----5 6----7 8----9 10--- SL
.........w c....w c.....w c ...w c.....w c
............................CT
So 1-4 make up SR 5&6 are CT and 7-10 are SL. To save dimmers we two-fer the warms together SR and the Cools together SR and mirror that on SL but on separate dimmers.
With measurements we can even help you further, but you should also learn photometrics. Its done with A^2+B^2=C^2. So lets say to find a FOH throw distance. The trim hight is 25' and then its 30' to the object/area you are lighting. Subtract 5' from your trim height to factor in a person so 20^2 = 400. 30^2 =900. 200+900=1100. 1100 square root= 33, 33' is your throw distance to the object you are lighting. From there you would look on a manufacturers specs for a specific light and times (X) 33' by a given number. For example if it was a 36* ETC source four it is 33X.45=14'10" beam diameter, for the field diameter its 33X.63=20'9".
The beam diameter is where the light is 100% efficient and going from center of the light at 7'5" entering the field diameter is where the light out put drops to 50% efficiency and drops until there is no light left
To start I would say you need many more instruments above the stage. It is standard to be able to divide the stage into 3 sections SL, CT, SR and also US and DS some people add a mid stage brake into the mix. If you go with individual lights (not strips) it would be standard to use 2 instruments (a warm and a cool), some people like to do a 3 color wash. For your purpose right now I would stick with 2. Even if you go with strips it is still standard to brake the stage into SL, CT, SR and DS, US. When using strips it all depends on what type you get, how many lamps they have, and their physical measurements. How high are you electrics/grip (depending)?
Far as front light goes it is also standard to split the stage into SL, CT, SR, US and DS. With a warm and cool for each area.
To help clarify what I mean by these areas. Not to insult you by any means but just incase you don't know
SR=Stage Right (standing on stage looking at the audience)
CT=Center Stage
SL=Stage Left (standing on stage looking at the audience)
US=Up Stage (farthest away from the audience)
DS=Down Stage (Closest to the audience)
Also it may take more than one instrument to light each area fully. We have 2 warms and 2 cools spaced out to just get SL and this is mirrored SR with only 1 warm and 1 cool in the center. This a crude diagram
SR ---1 2----3 4----5 6----7 8----9 10--- SL
.........w c....w c.....w c ...w c.....w c
............................CT
So 1-4 make up SR 5&6 are CT and 7-10 are SL. To save dimmers we two-fer the warms together SR and the Cools together SR and mirror that on SL but on separate dimmers.
With measurements we can even help you further, but you should also learn photometrics. Its done with A^2+B^2=C^2. So lets say to find a FOH throw distance. The trim hight is 25' and then its 30' to the object/area you are lighting. Subtract 5' from your trim height to factor in a person so 20^2 = 400. 30^2 =900. 200+900=1100. 1100 square root= 33, 33' is your throw distance to the object you are lighting. From there you would look on a manufacturers specs for a specific light and times (X) 33' by a given number. For example if it was a 36* ETC source four it is 33X.45=14'10" beam diameter, for the field diameter its 33X.63=20'9".
The beam diameter is where the light is 100% efficient and going from center of the light at 7'5" entering the field diameter is where the light out put drops to 50% efficiency and drops until there is no light left
Last edited:
Thanks for the drawings, they certanly cover more than 1,000 words
I know you probably don't have exact dimensions, but it would help if you could estimate a few dimensions, such as:
- width and height of the proscenium opening
- depth of the stage- front edge to prosc. and prosc. to back wall.
- location of the FOH lighting position- distance from proscenium, hight above stage floor
- width of FOH pipe
- height of your lighting positions above the stage
You have far cycs, but do you have a cyc? or is it just a black drape at the back of the stage? It seems like they are not being used for their designed purpose.
Be sure to check out the details on the strip lights when you can, especially what bulbs you are using and what they can take.
One additional thing you will need to look at when considering adding or changing fixtures is how the dimmers are wired. Are they hard-wired to the electrics? If they are, you should let us know how many circuits/dimmers are on each electric. Also, are circuits hard-wired to dimmers, or is there some sort of patching arrangement?
Also, if you haven't been checking out other discussions, be sure to look at the one about using strip lights for top light.
-Fred
I know you probably don't have exact dimensions, but it would help if you could estimate a few dimensions, such as:
- width and height of the proscenium opening
- depth of the stage- front edge to prosc. and prosc. to back wall.
- location of the FOH lighting position- distance from proscenium, hight above stage floor
- width of FOH pipe
- height of your lighting positions above the stage
You have far cycs, but do you have a cyc? or is it just a black drape at the back of the stage? It seems like they are not being used for their designed purpose.
Be sure to check out the details on the strip lights when you can, especially what bulbs you are using and what they can take.
One additional thing you will need to look at when considering adding or changing fixtures is how the dimmers are wired. Are they hard-wired to the electrics? If they are, you should let us know how many circuits/dimmers are on each electric. Also, are circuits hard-wired to dimmers, or is there some sort of patching arrangement?
Also, if you haven't been checking out other discussions, be sure to look at the one about using strip lights for top light.
-Fred
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Right, thanks for explaining photometrics and all, I will look up a book and learn a little more in depth about it.
And I knew I was forgetting something, yes we use flys, they are in wing stage left. That grid for the lights was kind of not correct, as far as what the fixtures are sitting on, the fixtures are on three separate flys. (I always forget to put in the speakers, but they are in the middle of the house facing the oposite door.). As far as areas go, we can actualy do it, the full Cycs are seperate, one is behind the second curtain one in front, so the front one fills most of the front for US, then the rear one for DS, then we make one fader contorl varius spotlights and fresnels to create a SR SL and CT. And we do have a SR SL and CT for the spots aswell. But the only thing we dont have for each section is warm and cool colors. Along with the hopefully new equipment I will ask for some new fresnels aswell to add warm and cool to each section and then main ones.
I think the only real use, besides partys before shows begin (xD, good times.) , we have gotton out of the color strips is one time we had to make our stage "sink", was a boat sinking scene, and personally, I think it was the best effect I have ever done
Flashed all the lights a few times then all lights out except a faint blue light and flashing red for an emergency light, occompinied by the sirens from the sound op, was great.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
Oh my, oh my.
You need a lot more fixtures over your stage.
Also, the "far cycs" that you are talking about really aren't designed to wash they stage - they're designed to wash a backdrop.
You should really look at just getting a boatload of fresnels - just some good ol' Altman 65Qs - 20 would be a good number to get rolling. These will be your top light - 2 or 3 bars of either 4 or 5 pairs of fixtures per bar. Lamp @ 500 watts with BTL lamps. That way you can put 4 fixtures per dimmer if you need to. I couldn't tell you exactly how many you should look to get without dimensions of the stage and trim heights of your electrics.
In terms of colors, RGB really only ever gets used for lighting cycs and in LED fixtures, and in old R40 strips - which are what you seem to call "color bars" or "color strip lights". The warm/cool lighting explained by Wolf is really what you want to do.
You need a lot more fixtures over your stage.
Also, the "far cycs" that you are talking about really aren't designed to wash they stage - they're designed to wash a backdrop.
You should really look at just getting a boatload of fresnels - just some good ol' Altman 65Qs - 20 would be a good number to get rolling. These will be your top light - 2 or 3 bars of either 4 or 5 pairs of fixtures per bar. Lamp @ 500 watts with BTL lamps. That way you can put 4 fixtures per dimmer if you need to. I couldn't tell you exactly how many you should look to get without dimensions of the stage and trim heights of your electrics.
In terms of colors, RGB really only ever gets used for lighting cycs and in LED fixtures, and in old R40 strips - which are what you seem to call "color bars" or "color strip lights". The warm/cool lighting explained by Wolf is really what you want to do.
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Thanks for the drawings, they certanly cover more than 1,000 words
I know you probably don't have exact dimensions, but it would help if you could estimate a few dimensions, such as:
- width and height of the proscenium opening
- depth of the stage- front edge to prosc. and prosc. to back wall.
- location of the FOH lighting position- distance from proscenium, hight above stage floor
- width of FOH pipe
- height of your lighting positions above the stage
You have far cycs, but do you have a cyc? or is it just a black drape at the back of the stage? It seems like they are not being used for their designed purpose.
Be sure to check out the details on the strip lights when you can, especially what bulbs you are using and what they can take.
One additional thing you will need to look at when considering adding or changing fixtures is how the dimmers are wired. Are they hard-wired to the electrics? If they are, you should let us know how many circuits/dimmers are on each electric. Also, are circuits hard-wired to dimmers, or is there some sort of patching arrangement?
Also, if you haven't been checking out other discussions, be sure to look at the one about using strip lights for top light.
-Fred
I'll try estimate some distances best I can
- width and height of the proscenium opening- The proscenium lights we use are the same ones we use for house, and if the house lights are on, so are proscenium because they are part of the house lights. The ceiling is tierd downward but then, level with the last row row of seats the ceiling goes upward, and the house lights on that upward slant part are also slanted, pointed at the stage. So, there is about 10 lights in each row, theres two rows, adbout two feet between rows and 2.5 between lights I estimate. So from the start to end of the slant about 11 or so feet.
- depth of the stage- front edge to prosc. and prosc. to back wall.
The front of the stage starts under the second row or proscenium lights, so from the fist row to the front edge of the stage about 1-2 feet. From the prosc. to back wall I would say about 25 feet? Not to sure on that.
- location of the FOH lighting position- distance from proscenium, height above stage floor. Hard to say, since the walkays slant down to the stage. I would say about level with stage. Because where the light desk is is before the floor slants down, It may be level. Distance from the proscenium I really have no guess. Proscium is right at the end of the last row of seats though.
- width of FOH pipe. I dont know what that meens. Sorry. :/
- height of your lighting positions above the stage. Do you meen the fixtures above the floor? They are level or a half foot or so lower then the top of the flys, level with the curtain top, so maybe about 10-12 feet, not to sure.
The description of the Far Cycs we have say "..to uniformly light a large area.." Wich they do pretty good. And at the back of the stage is a curtain, the same one as the one in the middle of the stage, to cover the conrete wall and passage way.
And for the strips, we dont use them at all unless the show calls for colored lighting, they all have color roundals in them, so unless we need color they arent used. I will take a good look when I am there to see if I am using the right bulbs, Pretty sure. I will also try to find the booklet that describes most everything about the theatre, including lighting fixtures installed.
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Okay, Yeah, We could use some more fresnels, so as I said, I will ask for some of them as well. Is there anywhere you can buy them without bulbs included? We have many many maaany extra bulbs, and the school backs up bulbs 100%, so I can ask for bulbs after, because another 4,000 to add isnt to good xD.
Sigh... I don't seem to be doing too well in commumicating. Let's start with some definitions:I'll try estimate some distances best I can
Proscenium - the wall that seperates the stage form the audience
FOH Pipe (or FOH Lighting Position) - Where the lighting instruments on the audience side of the proscenium are hung.
I made a quick drawing, hopefully it will clarify things.
Oh, and don't forget to tell us how power gets from the dimmers to the instruments.
-Fred
Attachments
Last edited:
MillburyAuditorium
Active Member
Oh, sorry. ^^'
Each fixture above the stage is plugged into the bar they are hanging from, the output wires are numbered, as well as the sockets on the other end. Then the wires are ran through the wall, which I have no clue how it was done since the walls is concrete. There are no wires going into the dimmers, unless they are going through the stage floor. If not the floor, the wall behind it then. Its quite confusing actually how the wires are routed.
All rough estimates of course
FOH pipe to Prosc. About 11-12 feet.
Hight of FOH Pipe to stage. About 12-13 feet.
Height of proscenium opening. About 10-11 feet.
Depeth behind prosc. About 21-24 feet.
Width of the foh pipe. About 22-25 feet.
Each fixture above the stage is plugged into the bar they are hanging from, the output wires are numbered, as well as the sockets on the other end. Then the wires are ran through the wall, which I have no clue how it was done since the walls is concrete. There are no wires going into the dimmers, unless they are going through the stage floor. If not the floor, the wall behind it then. Its quite confusing actually how the wires are routed.
All rough estimates of course
FOH pipe to Prosc. About 11-12 feet.
Hight of FOH Pipe to stage. About 12-13 feet.
Height of proscenium opening. About 10-11 feet.
Depeth behind prosc. About 21-24 feet.
Width of the foh pipe. About 22-25 feet.
Similar threads
