hey guys im a sound guy in a smal church usualy 40-50 people every sunday our sanctuary is about 30x40 we have a up and coming worship group with a great pianist good guitar and a very young very loud drummer.. we ony have 3 shure sm58 mics 1 use to get the accoustic guitar even with the electric keyboard trying to find a better way to do a accoustic guiatar..very small budget and wanting to get a sound shield to quiet the drummer down also wanted to know what the best material s were for "stuffing" the drums and how much i can stuff them.. do u stuff a of them or just the bass...has anyone made there own drum surrounds a few of the members from our church own a cabinet shop and can make just about anything so any blueprints or suggestions?? oh by the way my name is nate this seems like a pretty cool forum thanks guys
small church sound tech here
- Thread starterbignate
- Start date
Most of the drum shield s (click the underlined term to be taken to the wiki entry where there's a picture) I've seen have been "homemade," but I'm not sure by whom. They're usually made from 1/4" Lexan or Plexiglas panels, ~24"W x ~5'-0"H, unframed. The tricky part is finding unobtrusive hinges, or maybe fixed plastic extrusions ("H" on its side) to connect the panels together. You'd probably need a minimum of five panels arranged thusly (bad ASCII art follows)
|___|
_\_/_
EDIT: Oh, and these drum shields give nasty reflections from the stage lights if focused from the front at the drummer. Just something to be aware of.
And I'd hang a heavy velour drape behind the drum kit, or across the entire stage.
As for stuffing, only in the kick drum--I've seen bed pillows (feather and foam), folded blankets (usually all cotton), and who knows what else. Of course with all this drum shielding, stuffing, and velour curtains, you're likely to then need to mic the drums:
1-Kick
2-Snare Top (either top or bottom may be optional)
3-Snare Bottom
4-Hat
5-R1
6-R2
7-R3
8-Floor
9-OH-L
10-OH-R
11-Toys
12-Vocal
Then you need a compressor for the Kick, noise gate s for the Toms, etc., etc.--the list goes on and on. It gets rather crazy rather quickly.
EDIT2:
Thread moved to the Audio forum for greater exposure.
bignate (is there a little nate?), since you're new here, I'll be gentle and remind/inform you that we appreciate the use of the shift key and proper punctuation and spelling around here. Some members won't respond to a post riddled with errors. See this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/new-member-board/8599-cb-technical-forum-english-class.html for more.
Last edited:
bishopthomas
Well-Known Member
There's only one real solution to the problem you're going to have: Play softer. You can build walls around the drums until you have literally created another room, but the drums will still be too loud if the player hits too hard. Tell the drummer to play softer (this includes brushes/rods) or go home. The other solution is an electronic drum set, but I doubt you'll be interested in that at this point in your game.
By the way, there's no need for micing ANY of the drums if you don't have to, especially not 12 channels with comps/gates/verbs/etc on everything. Don't let Derek scare you...
By the way, there's no need for micing ANY of the drums if you don't have to, especially not 12 channels with comps/gates/verbs/etc on everything. Don't let Derek scare you...
Drum shields or enclosures can be a touchy subject, especially in churches. The negative perspective of drum shields and enclosures is often a result of how they are built. If you just build a Plexiglas barrier then you are going to get reflections back to the drummer and off the walls behind them as well as minimal isolation. Absorption on the bottom of the front wall with Plexi above that and either a full enclosure or at least absorption on the wall behind the drummer will usually help.
One of the tradeoffs is that the more you isolate the drummer, the more you have to address getting the balance of the drums you want in the house sound as well as the band members all hearing one another. That can get into micing the drums and monitors, which sounds like something outside your current budget.
It actually sounds like electronic drums may be an option in your case in order to reduce stage levels without isolating the drummer from everyone else. The drummer may resist but you can give them the choice of electronic drums or using something like HotRods in conjunction with their learning to play softer.
As far as the guitar, are you thinking along the lines of a different microphone? There are certainly some better options than an SM58 for a guitar but things like whether you mixer can provide phantom power and your budget will impact what might actually be practical.
One of the tradeoffs is that the more you isolate the drummer, the more you have to address getting the balance of the drums you want in the house sound as well as the band members all hearing one another. That can get into micing the drums and monitors, which sounds like something outside your current budget.
It actually sounds like electronic drums may be an option in your case in order to reduce stage levels without isolating the drummer from everyone else. The drummer may resist but you can give them the choice of electronic drums or using something like HotRods in conjunction with their learning to play softer.
As far as the guitar, are you thinking along the lines of a different microphone? There are certainly some better options than an SM58 for a guitar but things like whether you mixer can provide phantom power and your budget will impact what might actually be practical.
I agree the issue is much more about musician technique. Once was the house guy when an "A" list singer came in and sang with a SM58 on a wire holding at the waist. Any engineers nightmare! The drummer was so sensitive to that and was not behind plexi. Sounded great. Compliments to her band and engineer. You might ask the acc gtr if they would consider placing a pickup in their guitar.
Guitar pickups through a direct box can sound great. Mics are not as consistent because guitarists tend to move around the mic quite a bit. Placement of a mic to a guitar is fairly critical.
However, I have also encountered some nasty sounding pickups. I don't know enough to suggest which types are better or worse, but I suspect quality is related to cost, and active (with a battery) seems to generally sound better than passive.
Things to watch out for with pickups: It is easy to forget that many of them have 9V batteries. A dying battery results in distortion and a dead battery means no sound. I try ask how old the battery is when showing them the cord to plug in, and I keep fresh spares handy. An old battery will often work OK for the rehearsal and die right in the middle of the church service. Some pickups have three to five band EQs sliders on the side of the guitar. If it sounds waaaay to bright or muddy, ask the musician to set their EQ to flat.
However, I have also encountered some nasty sounding pickups. I don't know enough to suggest which types are better or worse, but I suspect quality is related to cost, and active (with a battery) seems to generally sound better than passive.
Things to watch out for with pickups: It is easy to forget that many of them have 9V batteries. A dying battery results in distortion and a dead battery means no sound. I try ask how old the battery is when showing them the cord to plug in, and I keep fresh spares handy. An old battery will often work OK for the rehearsal and die right in the middle of the church service. Some pickups have three to five band EQs sliders on the side of the guitar. If it sounds waaaay to bright or muddy, ask the musician to set their EQ to flat.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
This is assuming the acoustic guitar has a built in mic for it. My suggestion is to look into finding a decent lav pack (this case it could be wired or wireless and actually tape the Lav into the accoustic itself. You'll pick up the guitar without the need for a mic in front of the guitarist (plus it stays put) and you wont pick up a lot of the drums or other stage noise.
Its a trick I use every year for our talent show, even with the on board microphone i find it really isn't placed well unless its a very high quality electric acoustic.
okay wow aot of good info thanks...i am ony 20 and kinda new to alot of this so i will learn all i can..i guess i will start at the top..
on the drum shield i have finaly got one figured into the budget so hopefully 1st of the year i will have found a decent one. looking to spend between 200-400$ definetly want one about 5ft tall and at least 6ft wide... seen somewere someone mentioned a "quieter" drum stick like rubber or something? have been looking around just wanted info on them dont think ill need them with the shield but u never know..
on the accoustic guiatar we are looking at getting a kit to make it so we can "plug" it in..also got a new mic stand so i have it mic'd really good right now sounds nice.still using the shure sm58 thats about all we have and i think ill make it work until we get the plug in setup.. thanks alot for all your info really do apreciate it like i said just starting and learning in the future planning on moving house speakers out from behind stage setting up a monitor system and a member of our church has acuired a banjo so prey for me thanks again in advance
bishopthomas
Well-Known Member
For quieter sticks look up "hot rods." Acoustic guitar pickups are called piezo pickups. Fishman makes some decent ones for around $100. They install under the saddle, come in active or passive, with or without volume/EQ/etc. A banjo! Your Freudian slip of "prey for me" is accurate - you will want to destroy the banjo very soon.
In my free time, i play drums in a band and for many local events. Everything here has been spot on (for the most part). The BEST way to make the drums softer is to play them softer. Hot Rods work very well, but if he's as loud as you say, id try Stealth Rods (Promark), as there made of nylon instead of wood, and play softer still. If he's someone who swears by this size stick, Vic Firth makes all normal size sticks with a felt head. They are much softer then a normal stick, but not as quiet as a pair of rods. If the kick is to loud or boomy, a mix of pillows and heavy bath towels is your best friend. If the cymbals are to loud, a triangle of gaff on the bottom is your best best. The same goes with any of the toms. If you have to many overtones, or its still to loud, gaff tape applied to the batter side should do the trick. Hope this helps!
DiscoBoxer
Active Member
I'm going to 2nd MuseAV on the electronic kit.
In smaller spaces an acoustic drum set can be a nightmare when it comes to controlling the sound. With a "lower-end" drum enclosure, you are going to have artifacts in the audio if you use mics for recording and you will likely still have volume issues because the drummers will want to play loud due to the illusion of the enclosure. You may have a hard time doing a proper enclosure that will last in your budget.
Asking a drummer to play soft is a tough thing for many drummers to accept. I love drummers but they seem to be a different breed. It takes time to develop a good practice of negotiating with your worship team. In smaller churches, you are going to face short term members often, as well as dedicated members that become burnt out because of limited resources. This means that you are going to spend a lot of time training the drummers to work in the environment. Sometimes you get lucky, but I should say that is more rare and you will need to do overtime on the ministry side of your job!
If your isolation booth turns out to be effective at isolating the drums, you will then have problems with your stage monitor volume. Like MuseAV stated, the band will feel disconnected and they will want you to supplement with monitors. This reintroduces a volume problem into your mix. Note that you will want your house levels to be at least 8-10db higher than your stage level. If not, you will get a "muddy" result.
Another issue with the enclosure is the SPL inside the enclosure. The drums will be loud and if there is a monitor, it's going to be loud. This is not good for the health of the drummers ear. You could deal with this by providing a good set of isolating headphones (expensive) and I would recommend a "buttkicker". A "buttkicker" attached to the drum stool will help the drummer feel more natural in the booth with headphones.
After many failures in doing exactly what you are wanting to do, I gave up and went with a electronic kit. I bet you can find a decent used one in your budget. It took a few months, some tweaking and some more debate, but my drummers now love the kit. It offers them many sound options for various styles and the quality of kits nowadays, offer some very good natural sounds. Since the purchase, I have never had a new drummer say that they will not play on it.
Keep looking around this forum, there are many folks on here who have a great deal of knowledge that you will find helpful as your church grows and you face new issue. Good luck!
In smaller spaces an acoustic drum set can be a nightmare when it comes to controlling the sound. With a "lower-end" drum enclosure, you are going to have artifacts in the audio if you use mics for recording and you will likely still have volume issues because the drummers will want to play loud due to the illusion of the enclosure. You may have a hard time doing a proper enclosure that will last in your budget.
Asking a drummer to play soft is a tough thing for many drummers to accept. I love drummers but they seem to be a different breed. It takes time to develop a good practice of negotiating with your worship team. In smaller churches, you are going to face short term members often, as well as dedicated members that become burnt out because of limited resources. This means that you are going to spend a lot of time training the drummers to work in the environment. Sometimes you get lucky, but I should say that is more rare and you will need to do overtime on the ministry side of your job!
If your isolation booth turns out to be effective at isolating the drums, you will then have problems with your stage monitor volume. Like MuseAV stated, the band will feel disconnected and they will want you to supplement with monitors. This reintroduces a volume problem into your mix. Note that you will want your house levels to be at least 8-10db higher than your stage level. If not, you will get a "muddy" result.
Another issue with the enclosure is the SPL inside the enclosure. The drums will be loud and if there is a monitor, it's going to be loud. This is not good for the health of the drummers ear. You could deal with this by providing a good set of isolating headphones (expensive) and I would recommend a "buttkicker". A "buttkicker" attached to the drum stool will help the drummer feel more natural in the booth with headphones.
After many failures in doing exactly what you are wanting to do, I gave up and went with a electronic kit. I bet you can find a decent used one in your budget. It took a few months, some tweaking and some more debate, but my drummers now love the kit. It offers them many sound options for various styles and the quality of kits nowadays, offer some very good natural sounds. Since the purchase, I have never had a new drummer say that they will not play on it.
Keep looking around this forum, there are many folks on here who have a great deal of knowledge that you will find helpful as your church grows and you face new issue. Good luck!
I fully understand the budget constraints many small churches face. I've also found that when it comes to drum shields or enclosures that if you don't approach them properly then the results are often poorly received. Something like this, Drum Booth | Perdue Acoustics, or this, IsoPac A, with absorption on the lower portion of the front panels, absorption behind and a lid, along with proper monitoring and micing, are generally much more likely to provide an acceptable result. If you plan on using just a few Plexiglas panels then you might want to try to figure out a way to try it before committing to it.
Yes, I agree.. but,
an electronic kit that feels anything close to an acoustic is going to be relatively expensive. It like doing a color wash with a load of 6"s. You could get scrollers, and make the existing lights work, or you could replace all of the lights with Selador LED's. They will give you as many colors as you want, but you just spent a ton of money.
DiscoBoxer
Active Member
Express, you make a great point. The more natural feeling sets with full featured modules are going to be expensive. Mesh heads are far more natural feeling than the rubber pads offered below $1000. I have not looked into kits in quite awhile but maybe there is a used starter set that has a decent module, rubber pads and a mesh snare. With many systems like the Rolands, you can later upgrade the rubber pad triggers with higher quality mesh style triggers as well as more natural cymbals etc., down the road. More money gets you more features of course.
If the enclosure design or purchase is not carefully considered, and the environment change or synergy on stage is not well thought out, you could find yourself spending quite a bit more than you would on say a used Roland TD-9sx (Great starter set IMO).
This is a challenge we all have probably faced at one point or another:
1) We have a problem that needs remediation
2) We find a best case solution but it is too expensive
3) We spend a portion of the money on an alternate option
4) We discover this alternate option is not effective or it has unforseen side effects
5) We spend some more money to deal with the shortcomings
6) We are still not pleased with the outcome but are committed now to investment
7) We spend more and are still disatisfied
8) We cut our loses on the alternate, try to recoup and provide the original best option by spending 3x as much.
Many times we have success and can save money with "out-of-the-box" ideas. That is one thing I love to do on everything that I do. However, respect can be lost when decisions are made with good intentions but bad results. I am not implying that that is the case here, but I could see it becoming that, as I have witnessed it many times over the years and personally experienced it myself (when I was younger).
I have negotiated the drum volume issue several times with different churches that I have worked with. Houses of Worship go far beyond entertainment. People of the church who are seperated from the ability to worship by major sound distractions, is a big problem. It will need to be respected by the powers of the church & to put resources in to deal with it properly.
Using hot rods, modifying the drums and telling the drummer to play softer is the cheapest option here by far. But in smaller churches where access to many good drummers is limited, it will be a battle over and over. Every new drummer has to be trained and then they will test you when live, you push back, they taper off and later return to full volume when the team gets into a grove. All of this turmoil takes a toll on the team to lead the church into a connected worship.
I appologize for the long rants as I could go on and on with the topic. My suggestion is to seek advice from other techs at similar churches, pray, think this one through as much as possible, pray again and you will be ok.
If the enclosure design or purchase is not carefully considered, and the environment change or synergy on stage is not well thought out, you could find yourself spending quite a bit more than you would on say a used Roland TD-9sx (Great starter set IMO).
This is a challenge we all have probably faced at one point or another:
1) We have a problem that needs remediation
2) We find a best case solution but it is too expensive
3) We spend a portion of the money on an alternate option
4) We discover this alternate option is not effective or it has unforseen side effects
5) We spend some more money to deal with the shortcomings
6) We are still not pleased with the outcome but are committed now to investment
7) We spend more and are still disatisfied
8) We cut our loses on the alternate, try to recoup and provide the original best option by spending 3x as much.
Many times we have success and can save money with "out-of-the-box" ideas. That is one thing I love to do on everything that I do. However, respect can be lost when decisions are made with good intentions but bad results. I am not implying that that is the case here, but I could see it becoming that, as I have witnessed it many times over the years and personally experienced it myself (when I was younger).
I have negotiated the drum volume issue several times with different churches that I have worked with. Houses of Worship go far beyond entertainment. People of the church who are seperated from the ability to worship by major sound distractions, is a big problem. It will need to be respected by the powers of the church & to put resources in to deal with it properly.
Using hot rods, modifying the drums and telling the drummer to play softer is the cheapest option here by far. But in smaller churches where access to many good drummers is limited, it will be a battle over and over. Every new drummer has to be trained and then they will test you when live, you push back, they taper off and later return to full volume when the team gets into a grove. All of this turmoil takes a toll on the team to lead the church into a connected worship.
I appologize for the long rants as I could go on and on with the topic. My suggestion is to seek advice from other techs at similar churches, pray, think this one through as much as possible, pray again and you will be ok.
Okay so i have spent a little and came up big..Made the drummer and the worship leader both happy its a mirracle!!So i invested in a pair of hot rod practice sticks the wooden reed ones ,and gave them to the drummer to try and also mentioned maybe to take it easy on the bass your a little heavy on the foot..Well after practice the worship leader was just so happy with the results and the drummer was asking were he could get a set of the sticks for his personal kit worship today was great no cringes by the worship leader and no complaints of want for a drum booth afterwords so all is well i got what i wanted for christmas haha! thanks guys!
DiscoBoxer
Active Member
Great job, keep up the good work!
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