Where to start to build a booth?

[MillburyAuditorium]

If I had an open top booth, Would it count as an enclosed space and need all the re-wiring done to get electricity to it?

And I didn't think about sprinklers. Well, I think I am going to talk with he principal and get a quote from her on how much we need, or maybe she would be nice and buy it for us, wouldn't that be a treat? : ) Probably not though :/

I don't really want this to be to cheap, because I want it to last for generations of students. Same with the light board and intercom system.

Heh, if I could have exactly what is in the picture I showed you all, I would love that : P

Thank you all for your opinions and comments and help.


Also, there isnt by chance, any companies out there that specialize in control room booths is there?


Also after looking at that picture, I dont see any sprinklers or outlets int here : P

Also also, the one int he picture kind of looks like it was made out of aluminum, not stone like the rest of the school, or plaster. Really there isnt much of walls, its mostly windows.

 

[tjrobb]

Well yes, you would still need as many outlets as it takes to eliminate the 'perma-cord' problem. In general in a booth more outlets = better. If possible, two or more circuits are ideal (you don't want your sound board tripping a breaker AND taking out your light board).

Also, if you go with the counter/open-top idea you MIGHT be able to avoid moving the fire pull. MIGHT being the key word (you cannot just trim the counter around it).

In general I find (personal opinion) the three big issues with an open booth are security (see my earlier post), the sound of a tech typing on a light and/or sound board, and sometimes the SM calling cues (depending on the venue). If you can live with a little extra noise in the house, an open-top booth is probably the best for you.

As for decor, if you have much wood in the house now you might be able to 'face' the audience side and make it look snazzy.

 

[kiwitechgirl]

A booth is not the be-all and end-all. We have two big theatres (a 1300-seater and a 1000-seater) here, and neither has a booth; both have operating positions at the back of the stalls. No, actually, that's wrong; the 1000-seater does have a booth but it's never used except for followspots. All it means is that the operators have to talk relatively quietly on comms; we've had shows called from the front in both venues and provided people talk quietly, it's fine. We don't feel the lack of a booth in either space. I can understand the want to be able to lock things - but really, a roll-top desk, or a custom-built bench with a lid you can lift on and lock, is probably much more realistic for you to be able to achieve. We had a booth in my school theatre, and it was awful - cramped, got ridiculously hot and you could never hear the show properly; we would have loved to have been in the theatre proper. You're going to run into all sorts of logistical, administrative and legal issues in trying to build a booth into your theatre; I commend your energy and your motives, but I think maybe you need to re-think! A new lighting desk, yep, new comms system, yep, but there are better uses of money than a booth. IMO, having read your thread about comms systems, you'd be far, far better to forget the idea of a booth and get a decent, solid wired comms system - ClearCom or TechPro - and a couple of decent radios so you can communicate between backstage and foyer - that will be far more use in the future. Forget wireless comms - wired are far more reliable (unless you spend an absolute fortune on the top-of-the-range wireless) and less likely to fail at a crucial moment.

 

[Raktor]

Also, there isnt by chance, any companies out there that specialize in control room booths is there?

Sure is. There's one that does pre-fab and custom ones, check out their site. http://www.controlbooth.com/

 

[Footer]

If you want this thing to last, you are not doing it right. It needs to be a part of the building. Real power needs to be ran in. Real HVAC needs to be ran in. Real sprinklers need to be put in. Otherwise, it will be taken down in a year or two because it is going to become a firetrap and a sauna. This thing is not going to be cheap either. To do it right is going to cost you 10-20k. Depending on power available, as well as other services, that could double. A properly done open air booth would be a 1/3rd of that.

I am not saying it can't be done, but don't do it half way. If you are going to do it, do it right.

When it comes to building codes, if you are building something new it has to be totally up to code, even if the rest of the building is not. Same thing goes for renovations, if the building does not have sprinklers, and you open up a wall to add on, now the entire building has to have sprinklers. You could be opening up a can of worms with this one.

I would build this into a complete renovation plan. Maybe your class could help organize the push to get that done, or at least get it started. Come up with a complete set of ideas of exactly what you want the space to become and present that.

 

[museav]

I was thinking moving the pull wouldn't go over good, but instead of moving it, putting it inside the booth, because usually, if there's a fire in there its more than likely one of the lights, so we might need one too. But now there isnt one for the audiance int he back, so maybe we would need to install two new pulls, I think those systems work like that, can have 1, or 100 kind of thing?

And for the power code,
We wouldnt need to run cables over guest places or walkways, and if we cant install an outlet in the booth, we can just get a extension cord running just outside the booth to an outlet on the backwall, theres about 4, and it will be taped straight down then udner the edge of the wall we have, its kind of odd, theres a kind of lip at the buttom of our wall in there, the wall is one long thing of wood, than black mesh stuff, then wood, then mesh, and so on. So it will be out of the wya and hardly noticable. But then the problem is, if that comes un-plugged, the whole booth gets shutdown. Would need to figure out a way keep the plug held in the socket. Probobly mount a sort of case around the outlet.

You can't decide what to do about a fire pull, the NEC/NFPA, local code and the local Fire Marshal's review will decide that for you. And you can't use an extension cord that way, it is against code. NEC and local code as well as the licensed Engineer Engineer and/or Electrical Contractor that will need to be designing and installing any electrical systems will decide how you have to handle the power. Oh, and the black mesh things are likely either acoustical treatment and/or HVAC grilles, blocking them may not be an option or at least not a good one. And what about accessibility, exiting, ventilation, heating and cooling, etc. for the booth and how it potentially affects those aspects for the room?

These are exactly the types of issues everyone is trying to note, this is not just a piece of equipment and thus it is not a matter of what you can make work but rather what is legal along with what is required as far as the procurement process. Even a portable booth can have aspects that have to be addressed in regards to code, ADA and other compliance such as how it affects exiting and accessibility for the room, potential trip hazards from cabling and so on. And Kyle is right that sometimes certain changes to the space can trigger other required changes.

It may turn out that there are few issues, but when dealing with construction in a commercial building for a space considered a public assembly space, there are simply many liability and code issues that have to be considered and aspects that have to be addressed by properly licensed professionals. Your first step is probably to talk to the school administration regarding how any construction projects are handled.

 

[fredthe]

...take out the back row of seats, wont be a problem there since we dont allow people to sit in those seats anyways...we will remove the second row, which also doesnt matter because noone can sit there either

I'm a bit curious... in you lighting console thread, you mention you sell out your shows. But, you're willing to take out seats, or not allow people to sit there. What makes those seats unusable/unsellable? Usually, you want as many seats as you can get.

...have a platform to level it off (the room slopes down tot he stage because our seats are not teired) and make it a little higher than the ground.

For long term use, Id' really worry about a "platform." (Outside what a Fire Marshall might think.) It Will loosen up over time, and you'd hate to have a booth where no one could walk or move without it being heard by the audience.

More to the point, what are you looking to have in the enclosed space? I hope we've convinced you to leave the sound board out of it, which just leaves the light board. Would your SM be sitting there? The director? (Yes, the director has no place in a booth diring a show, but some don't see it that way...). Followspots?

Here's an idea (subject to revision based on answers to the above questions...)
For the Sound board, take out 8' to 10' (width) of seats (one or two rows deep, depending on space availability) in the middle of the back wall. Level the area with concrete, and put in a roll-top, like this:
(See HSA Rolltop Desks - Fine Wood Furnishings for Audio & for more like it)
If you can, get power run in the floor to under the desk.
Also, you don't say how you get your snake from the stage to your mix location, but that could also potentially be put in a raceway in the floor.

For the Lighting board, consider a similar desk installed in a back corner. That way it's off to one side, and less obtrusive. This also can leave you with more seats to sell.

Going with the open "booth" area combined with securable furniture may get you what you want in terms of safety and security, and should keep you away from many code/permit issues. (I cringed when I read about moving the fire pull... around here it could take 6 months or more to go through all the necessary paperwork and approvals to get just that done.)

-Fred

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

A booth is not the be-all and end-all. We have two big theatres (a 1300-seater and a 1000-seater) here, and neither has a booth; both have operating positions at the back of the stalls. No, actually, that's wrong; the 1000-seater does have a booth but it's never used except for followspots. All it means is that the operators have to talk relatively quietly on comms; we've had shows called from the front in both venues and provided people talk quietly, it's fine. We don't feel the lack of a booth in either space. I can understand the want to be able to lock things - but really, a roll-top desk, or a custom-built bench with a lid you can lift on and lock, is probably much more realistic for you to be able to achieve. We had a booth in my school theatre, and it was awful - cramped, got ridiculously hot and you could never hear the show properly; we would have loved to have been in the theatre proper. You're going to run into all sorts of logistical, administrative and legal issues in trying to build a booth into your theatre; I commend your energy and your motives, but I think maybe you need to re-think! A new lighting desk, yep, new comms system, yep, but there are better uses of money than a booth. IMO, having read your thread about comms systems, you'd be far, far better to forget the idea of a booth and get a decent, solid wired comms system - ClearCom or TechPro - and a couple of decent radios so you can communicate between backstage and foyer - that will be far more use in the future. Forget wireless comms - wired are far more reliable (unless you spend an absolute fortune on the top-of-the-range wireless) and less likely to fail at a crucial moment.

I know that walkie-talkies will not be the best thing to do and it may break up or get interference. But please understand that we have not had any kind of communication with backstage for the last 15 years. And a walky-talkie set is far better then nothing. And if we can deal with nothing, we can deal with breakups.


And everyone, I know that you all may think that building a booth onto our auditorium isnt a good idea, and that I am going to have to spend alot and am going to have toruble with allt he codes. I know that I will need to spend alot, I know that I need to follow all the codes. My questions was not 'Is it a good idea to build a booth?' It was "Where to start to build a botth." Our students have decided on building a booth. We cannot do a complete renovation, mainly because the auditorium is completely inclused within the school. So over the last years we have been adding things. And since we do things every other day, do you think we want to open up a chest or the storage room and hual out all the equipment every time? We want a room, at the front of house. That we can lock, talk in, and kepee verythign setup. It will also boost the cosmetic of the room.

 

[fredthe]

I know that I need to follow all the codes.

I think you may have missed the point. Depending on the policies of your school district, it may not be up to you to follow the codes; it may be up to whoever you are required to contract with to do the work. You are talking a permanent structure; it may not be up to you.

That we can lock, talk in, and kepee verythign setup.

The first and last items can be achieved without an enclosed space. The second item (talking) won't be achieved without double-pane glass and heavily sound-deadened walls.

We (at least I) am not trying to stop you or discourage you; we're just trying to guide you with (likely, combined) centuries of experience.

Lastly, have we convinced you to keep the sound board out of any enclosed space, yet?

-Fr

 

[Cashwalker]

I'd suggest looking at cubicle-style structures like Steelcase. The panels are all UL rated and they also have electric hookups. The walls only go up to 7 or 8 feet, but the fiberglass panels block enough sound that whispering is OK, but the sound guy will still be able to hear the stage.

 

[philhaney]

...you all may think that building a booth into our auditorium isnt a good idea, and that I am going to have to spend a lot and am going to have toruble with all the codes. I know that I will need to spend a lot, I know that I need to follow all the codes. My questions was not 'Is it a good idea to build a booth?' It was "Where to start to build a botth."

MillburyAuditorium, we understand your frustration. We have all delt with situations in various venues that, for lack of a better term, sucked. Big time.

We're not trying to put a damper on your project, and we're not saying that you shouldn't do it. Building a booth in your theatre as a legacy for your class is an excellent idea, and we applaud you and your classmates.

All we are doing here is to try to give you the benefit of our experiences in similar situations. We don't always express ourselves as eloquently as we could or should, so we come across as hostile at times.

Based on your age, what you've said in previous posts, and the way the universe functions as concearns projects like this one, you're doing the building upgrade equivalent of walking into an unknown dark enclosed space from an area of bright sunlight.

We are trying to keep you from setting yourself up for dissapointment by shedding some light into that space, as well as providing some alternatives in the event that walking into it just can't be done.

(in short, we really are just trying to help you. It just might not seem like it...)

 

[museav]

I know that I will need to spend alot, I know that I need to follow all the codes. My questions was not 'Is it a good idea to build a booth?' It was "Where to start to build a botth."

I think that's what we're trying to answer. Instead of getting too far with specific issues or ideas you might be better off to be thinking in more general terms of why you need a booth and what you see as being required. Create a document that discusses what you functionally want from the booth, identifies any specific requirements such as minimum size, specific power provisions, etc. and presents a case for the booth. Don't get into how you see it being built or anything like that, just focus on what it needs to be from a functional perspective and the benefits of having such a space. That may help show the administration that there is some thought and planning behind the request. It will also provide the type of information that can help an Architect or General Contractor to provide some initial input or pricing. Then present that document to the school administration to find out where they feel you need to start and what people need to be involved.

If you are a private school then the public bid aspect may not apply but they may still have a policy to bid work or at least work over a certain dollar amount. Their insurance may also have something to say about this and who can perform the work. I would say that you could try talking to local code and permitting officials but since you don't, and can't, legally represent the school that might actually be inapproriate.

 

[fredthe]

Unless my searches have lead me astray, MillburyAuditorium is from Millbury, MA, a town of 13,000. The School Superintendant seems to be responsible for all of 4 schools. So, there may not be as much bureaucracy involved as in larger districts.

(But then again, we are talking Massachusetts )

-Fred

 

[Footer]

Building on what Brad said, you need to write up a specification for what you want. It needs to be clearly written. Specs are the "It shall contain a 16'x4' counter at 30" high" type of thing.

Writing specs is a real pain, ask anyone here who has done it. Google around for examples. It is with this spec list in hand that you have a chance of getting this thing done. That spec sheet can be passed off to a few contractors who will bid on the job. They will go with the lowest bidder and you will have a booth. They will build to code and make sure everything is done right. If things are done wrong, they are responsible, and they carry insurance for this.

So, figure out what you want. Write up a spec sheet. Take measurements. Make a concept drawing. Pass it off, hope you get what you asked for.

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

I think you may have missed the point. Depending on the policies of your school district, it may not be up to you to follow the codes; it may be up to whoever you are required to contract with to do the work. You are talking a permanent structure; it may not be up to you.

The first and last items can be achieved without an enclosed space. The second item (talking) won't be achieved without double-pane glass and heavily sound-deadened walls.

We (at least I) am not trying to stop you or discourage you; we're just trying to guide you with (likely, combined) centuries of experience.

Lastly, have we convinced you to keep the sound board out of any enclosed space, yet?

-Fr

Sorry if I made it seem like I thought I did everything, I simply meant I meaning the whole school.

And for the soundboard, we would do some testing with open windows and stuff to see if he can be inside, but if its just not workable he will be outside.
I have something to say about that though, I have seen MANY theatre' with sound boards inside their booths, including the Hanover, (Near where I live).
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/2871333938_7c4b07e6ee.jpg?v=0

Sorry for the size
(Hey! The last one is another picture of the booth I want xD)

Am I missing somethings? All the pics I see online have them inside :/

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

I'd suggest looking at cubicle-style structures like Steelcase. The panels are all UL rated and they also have electric hookups. The walls only go up to 7 or 8 feet, but the fiberglass panels block enough sound that whispering is OK, but the sound guy will still be able to hear the stage.

Thats actually what I have been looking for, I saw a place that sells pre-made one, but I just don't know if we could get it inside. I emailed them about a custom one.

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Okay, My friend, the sound op, and I will be getting together and take measurements right a argument and all soon.

Also, before I go ahead with that, continuing with the Pre-Fab'd rooms, does anyone think that is good? If im not mistaken, all building codes are taken care of, and the pre made rooms just need a power connection. Just need to find one that comes apart to fit through a doorway. I think that would go over very quickly. Because if it doesnt get built within a week or so we could be in trouble. (Week meening from start to finish, not from now.)

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Sorry for quadruple post.

I was bored so I made a rough rough rough sketch of what I would be looking for.

If anyone cares to see.

 

[Footer]

Most theatres that have a sound console inside a booth also have a snake burried in the floor that they can pull out and set up an FOH open air position. Even if you are seeing a show there and the booth in enclosed, that does not mean that during tech the console was sitting in the middle of the house. When we are in tech here, we do that exact thing. Both of our consoles are put 2/3rds back in the house. When the show opens, they are moved to a booth without glass for the run. You should be able to hear what the audience hears, see what the audience sees, smell what the audience smells.....

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Most theatres that have a sound console inside a booth also have a snake burried in the floor that they can pull out and set up an FOH open air position. Even if you are seeing a show there and the booth in enclosed, that does not mean that during tech the console was sitting in the middle of the house. When we are in tech here, we do that exact thing. Both of our consoles are put 2/3rds back in the house. When the show opens, they are moved to a booth without glass for the run. You should be able to hear what the audience hears, see what the audience sees, smell what the audience smells.....

You said a booth without glass. Would a booth with large sliding windows do the same thing?