Where to start to build a booth?

[museav]

Am I missing somethings? All the pics I see online have them inside :/

Yes, you are missing that this is typically a result of not being able to give up seating, a need for the security offered by an enclosed space or simply no one there to speak out against it. It really is simple, you can't mix for the audience if you don't know what they are hearing. It has been years since I worked on a theater that could only mix from the booth and that didn't have an alternate mix position or at least a tech rehearsal position out in the house. Oh, an here is an online picture of a private school theatre with a mix and lighting position out in the house, The Murray Arts Center : Mount Paran Christian School (and yes, that is an SSL C200 digital console at FOH, one of four SSL consoles in a building with very comprehensive technical facilities). Here's a larger space that serves as a community arts center as well as serving the adjacent public high school that has a mix position out in the house, NPAC - Home. Both spaces also have enclosed booths at the rear of the house that can be used for events that don't require significant mixing.

As far as an pre-manufactured enclosure meeting all codes, no, that is not necessarily true. It may meet national codes as far as its construction but it may not meet all local codes and how it is implemented and integrated into the space must still be addressed. If it is enclosed there may be not only electrical connections but also mechanical system connections, voice/data connections, life safety connections, etc. Also think of how you are going to get all the related technology (lighting, comms, audio, etc.) to and into the booth.

 

[cprted]

Sorry if I made it seem like I thought I did everything, I simply meant I meaning the whole school.

And for the soundboard, we would do some testing with open windows and stuff to see if he can be inside, but if its just not workable he will be outside.
I have something to say about that though, I have seen MANY theatre' with sound boards inside their booths, including the Hanover, (Near where I live).

Am I missing somethings? All the pics I see online have them inside :/

My theatre as an audio console in the booth, that doesn't mean its a good place to mix from. Anything more than a lecture or stand-up comedian and we usually move audio-land downstairs into the house. No matter how wide the windows open, you're still not going to be able to hear as well as if you were in the house.

I agree 100% (and then some) with footer's post below:

Most theatres that have a sound console inside a booth also have a snake burried in the floor that they can pull out and set up an FOH open air position. Even if you are seeing a show there and the booth in enclosed, that does not mean that during tech the console was sitting in the middle of the house. When we are in tech here, we do that exact thing. Both of our consoles are put 2/3rds back in the house. When the show opens, they are moved to a booth without glass for the run. You should be able to hear what the audience hears, see what the audience sees, smell what the audience smells.....

 

[fredthe]

We've got our mix position in the house, but I will admit there are times (such as lectures) when it's one-man crew when the mix position needs to be in the booth (or wherever the lighting control is.) We have a small mixer that we can patch in, or we can remotely control the main Yamaha MCL7 board. (Of course, we have also been known to drop a laptop at the sound board, and remote to the Strand Light Palette )

I really like the Murry Arts Center site that Brad linked to. Something like that (with some way to secure the equipment when not in use) is what I was thinking of.

-Fred

 

[Footer]

I really like the Murry Arts Center site that Brad linked to. Something like that (with some way to secure the equipment when not in use) is what I was thinking of.

That space is the pefect example of what a space should be. It is by far one of the best venues in Atlanta, and thats putting it up against some excellent venues. They dumped a ton of money and technology into that building, if anyone could take a 1/10th of what they did, they would be on the way to a great venue. Take note.

 

[NickJones]

I could never work in a booth like that, the audience might see how much fun I have.... During one show we had a ping pong table set up.... I don't think patrons would be happy if I asked for my table tennis ball back.

But great for responsable mature technicians....

Nick

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Oh, okay than, We will setup something in the house for the Sound op.

 

[museav]

That space is the antitheses of what a space should be. It is by far one of the best venues in Atlanta, and thats putting it up against some excellent venues. They dumped a ton of money and technology into that building, if anyone could take a 1/10th of what they did, they would be on the way to a great venue. Take note.

It's the opposite of what a space should be?

Just to give an idea of the technology involved in that project, the audio system for that 560 seat space consists of three racks on stage filled with custom patchbays, wireless mics, wireless IEMs, Aphex active splitters, two Tascam X-48s for archival recording and other gear. There are also four racks of speaker processing and amplification and the FOH console and processing electronics in the amp room. And three more racks of patching, AV routing, control system electronics and sources in the booth at the back of the house. And that's just the house systems, there are several more racks of production communications, public address system, distributed audio and video, etc. related to the theatre operation as well as all of the audio and video being tied to the recording and production facilities elsewhere in the building. Stage monitoring includes Avioms, Shure IEMs and Nexo PS floor monitors. House speaker system is an LCR Nexo GEO-T system with Camco amps and BSS processing with Radian front fill and surround/effects speakers on Crown amps.

Unfortunately, due to a very messy conflict over the facility use and a resulting change in ownership, all of the people that conceived, developed and opened that facility are no longer involved, in fact the name even changed from the Dozier Centre when it opened (Don Dozier funded the design and construction) to the Murray Arts Center after the change in ownership. Based on comments that I have received from others, since that change the facility is not being operated anywhere near its potential capability.

Directly relevant to this discussion, the FOH console was originally to be a Yamaha PM1D, however part way through the building construction and in the midst of the detailed audio system design the Owner came back after AES one year to say they they purchased an SSL C200 console at the show instead (they got a deal since they had already purchased several other SSL consoles for the recording and production facilities in the building). Laying out the mix position with the SSL work surface we found that it resulted in insufficient space for the operator and the related patching and outboard gear. In a process that was unbelievably easy to accomplish compared to most projects, the Owner agreed to lose some seats and expand the FOH location forward another row. We drew up a conceptual drawing including revised power and conduit requirements and within a few days the Architect had modified the building drawings to show the FOH position you see in that picture.

Another relevant issue is to note the access to the booth, which was designed to meet ADA requirements for accessibility. That is the type of issue that may have to be addressed even if you used a manufactured assembly for the booth itself.

 

[Footer]

It's the opposite of what a space should be?

I should not write late at night.

 

[TimmyP1955]

The sound mixperson must be in the auditorium with the audience. No ifs, ands, or buts. Mixing sound from a booth is like painting a portrait with a 10' long brush - you miss all the nuances that the audience won't. And some of those nuances are ones that you want to remove!

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Yeah, When the booth is built and we do some tests, And it is not likely to have the sound op int he booth, We will setup a position in the house. I only say test because, We only have two speakers, that are are kind of pointed at the opposite door, so the sound waves would cross right in front of the booth, so with open windows, who knows you might get the same sound. But probably wont be that way. But its worth a try.

Anyone else have any more suggestion about the booth?

Also, no one answered my other questions, Does anyone think going with something like Steel case or some other company that makes pre-fabricated contorl rooms might be a logical idea? Would have ot be custom of course and be shipped in parts. But it might be better to do something like that because one, it will be assembled in one day so we dont need to worry about not having a work sapce, and all codes, fire, electric, collapse, etc should be covered. Except some parts of fire. Because most of them I have seen have everything already wired up, lights, outlets, HVAC, etc etc, and connected to the control booths owns breaker box and jsut need an electrical connection, which would have to be done by pros anyways. But jsut wondering if that would be logical, anyone every delt with something like this before?

 

[ruinexplorer]

I applaud your effort. I think my graduating class planted some trees and had a plaque stating that they were from our class.

I think you have finally come to the conclusion that your sound mix position needs the flexibility of being in the house. I have worked at many venues that have originally started with the mix position being in a booth, often without glass that can be removed. The result is that there is modification down the road to allow for the mix position to be in the house permanently or at least for tech. The Chandler Center for the Arts in Chandler, Arizona is an excellent example of this. The theater is part of the High School, but was created for use by the community as well. If you see in the picture, the (back) center of the house has a mix position and there are two windowed booths above that. The first tier used to be both the light and sound booth while the top tier is for follow spots. Needless to say, you could not effectively mix from the booth, so some seats were removed and the mix position was moved to the house (the stage manager now uses the other portion of the lower booth). The really cool thing about this house is that the back sections of house left and right (adjacent to the mix position) are "pods" that can rotate 180 degrees and have small stages. That's why you can see an additional booth house left.

Conversely, I also did work at another theater which happens to be listed on the US Register of Historic Places, and so alterations (mix position in a booth with sliding glass windows) are nearly impossible. For touring Broadway productions, seats are removed from the house and platforms added to stabilize the mix position. While this was ideal for the sound person, the box office detests it.

When the Chandler center moved everything out into the house, they do not pull out the equipment after every show. They simply have locking cabinets (as has been suggested for you) with a locking roll top desk for the console. Many worship facilities do the same thing when they decide to add a proper sound mix position. The only person that I could readily see needing to be in a booth proper is the stage manager. The technicians don't need to be talking during the show and the "button pushing" just isn't that loud. Even with a project of this magnitude, you will need the entire project inspected (you can't really go with temporary power) and a one-week window may prove difficult. I think that you really should consider having that position, but equip it with furniture like this.

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

and a one-week window may prove difficult.

When I said one week, I meant like, one week to start construction to end of construction, not from now. Of course I have no clue how long it would take, But I figured it would be relatively quick to actually build the booth, giving no problems occur. But then again it would probably be down on a vacation time.

 

[ruinexplorer]

I understood that you meant construction phase. If you have all your ducks in a row (plans and permits), it may be possible. Depending on what you will have to have done (pouring concrete to make a level surface, run power to meet NFPA/NEC regulations, etc.) as well as putting in your structure, you will still need to have the AHJ give final approval. Just a heads up to make sure that if you have that tight of a time schedule, to make preparations should something go wrong. If you are guessing the time schedule but actually will have more time available (summer vacation), then don't be too concerned as long as all the preparations have been made.

Keep us posted as you talk with your administration!

 

[fredthe]

Oh, okay than, We will setup something in the house for the Sound op.

Well, that's 1/2 the battle then

Seriously, please think about this for a bit...

So far some of the reasons I can see for your wanting a booth are:

1. the equipment to be always set-up and ready to use
2. security (so no one can mess with things they shouldn't)
3. safety (proper electrical safety, no trip hazards, etc.)

What other specific reasons can you come up with for needing a booth?

You mentoned talking, who in the booth would need to talk during a performance? Is the SM (calling cues) in there?

I can think of plenty of other reasons why you might need one... but you need to be able to present this to whoever is going to approve and fund it. It would be good for you to have clear and concise idea of what you are trying to achieve by building the booth... then look if a booth really is the best way to achieve that.

-Fred

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

I understood that you meant construction phase. If you have all your ducks in a row (plans and permits), it may be possible. Depending on what you will have to have done (pouring concrete to make a level surface, run power to meet NFPA/NEC regulations, etc.) as well as putting in your structure, you will still need to have the AHJ give final approval. Just a heads up to make sure that if you have that tight of a time schedule, to make preparations should something go wrong. If you are guessing the time schedule but actually will have more time available (summer vacation), then don't be too concerned as long as all the preparations have been made.

Keep us posted as you talk with your administration!

Oh well yes, It does not have to be a week at all, if it is being done, it could take two months for all I care. I just meant that because if we have dance academy coming in between construction, than I will have to find somewhere to put the light board for an operating position. Besides the back, there is no place to setup anything. Unless its at the edge of the stage, but I would need a lot of tape and a lot of DMX cable to reach to the back of the room to get to the master DMX outlet (Dont yell at me for improper language :/ I don't really know what to call it, the outlet hooked up to the dimmers.) But as long as it gets done, I can deal with it : )


I will keep everyone posted every step of the way : D May be a couple week gap from now until I get to talk to the board though.

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Well, that's 1/2 the battle then

Seriously, please think about this for a bit...

So far some of the reasons I can see for your wanting a booth are:

1. the equipment to be always set-up and ready to use
2. security (so no one can mess with things they shouldn't)
3. safety (proper electrical safety, no trip hazards, etc.)

What other specific reasons can you come up with for needing a booth?

You mentoned talking, who in the booth would need to talk during a performance? Is the SM (calling cues) in there?

I can think of plenty of other reasons why you might need one... but you need to be able to present this to whoever is going to approve and fund it. It would be good for you to have clear and concise idea of what you are trying to achieve by building the booth... then look if a booth really is the best way to achieve that.

-Fred

Cosmetic, Would look very nice in the house.

Not needing to keep the back row of lights on in the house to see.

Is something that we have wanted for years.

For talking, one of the two drama teachers will be in the booth correcting things, not calling ques because we don't want any interruption because we will be using a radio system. Also the light operator will be constantly talking with back stage manager and lobby manager.

Freedom- So we can eat/drink without the person recording yelling at us X_X, and basically just chit chat between one another.

Being able to get a good shot of the stage. - When a production is being recorded it must be taken from the side because we take up the only room there is in the back, and no one can stand in front of us obviously. So we were thinking of mounting a video camera on the booth a perfectly middle shot of the stage.

Letting the light operator be in the middle, I am on the side currently because the sound board and mixer and wireless mic receivers are simply to large to be not in the middle. (There is a cut in in the middle of the back row of seats.)


All these may seem feeble and not worth it to most people, but to us, it means a lot : ) And I'm sure others I am forgetting.

 

[Chris15]

Um, no one seems to have mentioned that you woudl quite probably be running into hot water with blocking the back passage as it's likely a required part of the exit SYSTEM. If the doors on one side lead out to the source of a fire, then you need to be able to safely get the audience out by other means. A booth in the middle of that will compromise that. Don't tell me they could open the doors - you wanted it to be lockable for security and you have to plan on the room being locked when you assess it.

Cosmetics - a pre fab booth in my opinion is unlikely to contribute positively to aesthetics...

Work lights - desk lamps and littlelites are the norm in the production world.

Freedom - you shouldn't be doing this in a show anyway, it distracts you, possibly leading to missed cues and is utterly unprofessional.

Apart from your own ego, why can't the videographer operate in front of you?

Lights need to be dead centre because?

You seem to have missed our collective point about comms systems present elsewhere, a wired one will work for 20 years, radio won't. A real headset is also wearable for hours, the same cannot be said of radio attempts.

An enclosed mix position is like asking lights to run the show off a cheap webcam in another room. Sliding windows by default will have half the area covered in glass when open. Glass reflects sound. Thus you can't get an accurate image of the house audio. Not to mention bass traps and such fun.

Remember that you are attempting to create a legacy. What you do needs to be able to work not for you but for the people who will follow you and the ones that follow them...

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Um, no one seems to have mentioned that you woudl quite probably be running into hot water with blocking the back passage as it's likely a required part of the exit SYSTEM. If the doors on one side lead out to the source of a fire, then you need to be able to safely get the audience out by other means. A booth in the middle of that will compromise that. Don't tell me they could open the doors - you wanted it to be lockable for security and you have to plan on the room being locked when you assess it.

Cosmetics - a pre fab booth in my opinion is unlikely to contribute positively to aesthetics...

Work lights - desk lamps and littlelites are the norm in the production world.

Freedom - you shouldn't be doing this in a show anyway, it distracts you, possibly leading to missed cues and is utterly unprofessional.

Apart from your own ego, why can't the videographer operate in front of you?

Lights need to be dead centre because?

You seem to have missed our collective point about comms systems present elsewhere, a wired one will work for 20 years, radio won't. A real headset is also wearable for hours, the same cannot be said of radio attempts.

An enclosed mix position is like asking lights to run the show off a cheap webcam in another room. Sliding windows by default will have half the area covered in glass when open. Glass reflects sound. Thus you can't get an accurate image of the house audio. Not to mention bass traps and such fun.

Remember that you are attempting to create a legacy. What you do needs to be able to work not for you but for the people who will follow you and the ones that follow them...

Pre-fabbed was just an idea, probably wont be though.

Worklights, We tried them but it was much easier to have a all around light.

Freedom, Sorry if we like to talk between each other and have a snack while putting on a 2.5 hour play.

Videographer- I really respect you and know your a professional. But please think of what you just said. Note that the person would be standing and have a tripod.

Light person doesnt need to be dead center, but would be better then on the side seeing the lights from the side.

Radios- We just want basic basic communication with backstage, thus, walky-talkies, We have absolutely nothing now, its basicly cross your fingers and hope nothing happens.

I have said many times that it was decided that the sound op will be outside.



All these things we dont NEED, but would like to have. We dont NEED anything, but we would like to have it. What is life without a few thigns you want? Me and all the other people who work in the theatre have been wanting these thigns for some time. And we do not need it, but it is just for the reason that we would like to have it.

 

[shiben]

Im gonna chime in here, because in our new basketball arena (which is used around once a month for events other than basketball, including graduation, conferences, concerts, etc.), we have some serious issues with our booth, and it sounds like it might be relevant. Our booth is located above all of the seats in the house, off in a corner, next to the rich-person box. All of this is on the end of the building that is behind a hoop, so not great for doing games in either... (its hard to see). The mix is in the booth, with sliding glass windows. All lighting control is centered next to the mix. Glass in the windows that can be removed knocks out your freedom aspect, because you cant talk when your open to the house anyway. Sound moves both directions. Light usually isnt a problem, but once you glass it in, you will want to use littlelites anyhow, seeing as once the glass goes in, you cant see into a dark house with all kinds of light on. It will be problem enough with 2 monitors, a littlelite, and any indicators off your light board. Video ops are always a pain, but building a booth really doesnt change anything. they are still there, unless you install a camera, which you can do anyhow. Buy a nice camera, put it on a security camera mount, and focus it, then hook it to a DVD recorder and your good. As for eating in the booth, dont. For one, all your buttons get greasy from your fingers touching them, and the chances of you dropping a drink on a console are very high. I will admit to having had a coffee in the booth before, but keep enough space that your not going to get the console with a spill (like 2 feet is usually enough). This effectively limits you to not having drinks in most booths (ours was quite large, the light booth alone is probably like 20 feet long, with similar length SM/Projection and Record booths too, but now its being renovated so they are making it smaller and more compact). For Com, get a wired system, and get a nice one. Cheap radios are cheap, but they suck. Once you have used clear-com or telex, you will not want to every use one again. Having stuff dead center is a good call, but usually you want Audio world there, and lighting world off to the side a bit. Anyhow, in our arena we usually use the hookups for the E-snake and ETCNet and set up a booth in the house for quality sake. That was a bit random, but I hope you can learn from our awkward situation.

 

[MillburyAuditorium]

Yeah, I have realized theres more thing consider then I originally thought, so we are calling the guy who worked in the theatre before I came to help out re-doing the lights and the booth. Plus he will give a big boost, being a profesional, to the chance of getting the money we need.