Conventional Fixtures Which HPL Lamp to Use at School?

jmac

Active Member
Forgive if this addressed elsewhere, but-

Doing work for musical at HS with new rig of S4's. They do one show per year, but the stage gets used for music practices, etc. everday...

Right now about a third of the lamps (HPL 575/115) are blown , just from everyday use...

Trying to suggest best lamp here. Looks like HPL 575/115X would last much longer, but but only give 2/3 lumens, which seems like it could be an issue.

How much longer would HPL 575/120's last, and how much less lumens?

Right now I'm thinking HPL 750/115X or HPL 750/120x might be the way to go for longest life and still adequate lumens, comparable to standard 575/115...?

Any lamp manufacturer preferred over others??

Please advise! Thanks.
 
If you do go with 750x lamps make sure that there is enough power in the system to handle the upping of wattage.

Another easy suggestion is to never run the lamps at full. Just running them at 90% can greatly increase lamp life.
 
Another easy suggestion is to never run the lamps at full. Just running them at 90% can greatly increase lamp life.

And help keep the ambient room temp down throughout the day.
 
Forgive if this addressed elsewhere, but-

Doing work for musical at HS with new rig of S4's. They do one show per year, but the stage gets used for music practices, etc. everday...

Right now about a third of the lamps (HPL 575/115) are blown , just from everyday use...

Trying to suggest best lamp here. Looks like HPL 575/115X would last much longer, but but only give 2/3 lumens, which seems like it could be an issue.

How much longer would HPL 575/120's last, and how much less lumens?

Right now I'm thinking HPL 750/115X or HPL 750/120x might be the way to go for longest life and still adequate lumens, comparable to standard 575/115...?

Any lamp manufacturer preferred over others??

Please advise! Thanks.

The school shouldn't be using stage instruments for daily practice. That's just a massive waste of lamps and electricity. The best solution is to install some fluorescent work lights above the stage and leave the stage lights off until it's show time.
 
Yep I would get some worklights installed. If the school is using the stage lighting for daily class activity, then they can expect to replace over 30% of the lamps in those fixtures in a school year. compare that to a less than 5% replacement rate when those same fixtures are used for performance/tech only. this does not even address the amount of power wasted burning these. these fixtures are some of the most efficient theatrical fixtures around but they are made for that performance moment, not long term day in,day out use.
but now that the students/teacher is use to that bright/warm light you will likely have a hard time convincing them that the don't need it till the performance


I use HPL 750/120x for the long life
 
Yep I would get some worklights installed. If the school is using the stage lighting for daily class activity, then they can expect to replace over 30% of the lamps in those fixtures in a school year. compare that to a less than 5% replacement rate when those same fixtures are used for performance/tech only. this does not even address the amount of power wasted burning these. these fixtures are some of the most efficient theatrical fixtures around but they are made for that performance moment, not long term day in,day out use.
but now that the students/teacher is use to that bright/warm light you will likely have a hard time convincing them that the don't need it till the performance


I use HPL 750/120x for the long life

Make it nice and bright with your worklights and tell them thats how it is. Sometimes you need to put the hammer down and explain that its too expensive to do things one way, and if someone has to give up a warm color temp in exchange for a cooler one for practice and class, that is something you need to just enforce, not make a $20/lamp and a couple hundred lumen decision on. The brighter lamps are always my choice, because they are brighter. If they need to last a long time, I choose florescents.
 
Sometimes you need to put the hammer down and explain that its too expensive to do things one way, and if someone has to give up a warm color temp in exchange for a cooler one for practice and class, that is something you need to just enforce, not make a $20/lamp and a couple hundred lumen decision on.

Oh how I wish I lived in that magical world.

Some people will waste power and expensive lamps no matter how much you protest.

What we need is to convince theatre designs and consultants to install more work and practice lights at the beginning!
 
If you do go with 750x lamps make sure that there is enough power in the system to handle the upping of wattage.

Another easy suggestion is to never run the lamps at full. Just running them at 90% can greatly increase lamp life.

We have plenty of power available. Two lightly loaded ETC Sensor racks... I have been trying to get them to go no higher than 80-90% to extend lamp life. They are music teachers, but willing to learn..
 
Oh how I wish I lived in that magical world.

Some people will waste power and expensive lamps no matter how much you protest.

What we need is to convince theatre designs and consultants to install more work and practice lights at the beginning!

Honestly, I think this problem is solvable by installing some worklights, a switch on the stage, and a lock on the door to the booth. Failing that, some type of lockout on the console. I had this issue at my old school when the orchestra was using our theater as a rehearsal space, and we were doing performances at the same time. I had about 200 lights in the air, all gelled, and after they got left on all night and I had to re-gel 11 3circuitx5cell mini-strips (and 190 odd other lights), you better believe there was some serious discussion. The worst bit was I didnt find out until the morning of the show we were doing I got a call from the Orchestra director asking why the footlights needed to be on for rehearsal, and it had been annoying. The solution for us ended up being setting up the board so that only the works were patched in the show that the others used ended up being a good idea. A similar situation might be good for the OP.
 
The school shouldn't be using stage instruments for daily practice. That's just a massive waste of lamps and electricity. The best solution is to install some fluorescent work lights above the stage and leave the stage lights off until it's show time.

This is well understood by me, and now by them. Unfortunately, they have just come thru a capital project, where the fluorescent work lights were mounted around the perimeter stage walls. Apparently it was not feasible or too expensive to install them over the fly space. So they are pretty useless, except for sweeping the floor. There is no possibility of rectifying this now.

But there are operations dollars to buy lamps, so that's where we are... All I can do is help them get the best lamps. I guess I'm leaning towards 750/120X and see if we can set the Sensor rack to limit output to 85-90 percent. Under-driving the 120V lamps will further help lamp life.

They have Unison stations for every day use. I will also help them set the presets to use fewer fixtures and lower settings.

PS- The capital project also gave us about 20 too many S4-26's and 20 too few S4-50's... Anybody want to trade...??!
 
Oh how I wish I lived in that magical world.

Some people will waste power and expensive lamps no matter how much you protest.

What we need is to convince theatre designs and consultants to install more work and practice lights at the beginning!

Exactly GTG! I wasn't there during design. Actually I am a EE consultant, and made similar mistakes in my younger days....
 
"EE designer in earlier days"... made huge mistakes in my past also - we all learn in doing the best thoughts we had back than. Hopefully those of the current days in doing new stuff are not of them specifying gear in learning still from our past and current mistakes. Base of experience is always a good thing to consider in having already made the mistakes and currently working in the field. This over someone 20 years out of date and without current and constant projects or just out of school without specific supervision on the project.

Assuming dialing in the flourescents for output and color temperature isn’t an option - even if a parameter mount of them in going 120 degree LED lamps in them might work well in this situation in even dialing in a range of color temperature. Perhaps the HPL lamps in general are useful for the situation. Wonder about the specifier in having specified the flourescent tubes about the stage walls - how much did such a person get paid for doing the photometrics design on such a contract. I assume the fire wall also works well with something against it in if a typical proscenium stage amongst other questions. Gee, why has this never been done before of did the specifer even think that far ahead into research into how to do it?

On the plus side of flourescents you can dial in the color temp. and lamp life between like 7,2K and 2,8K dependant on the lamp used for color temperature. CRI of the lamp used should also be looked at as often the contractor supplied lamps won’t be as good.

In back to the HPL lamps... I note it was HPL 575w/115v and now there is all this talk about jumping to 750w in general. Higher wattage is not a energy saving option even if long life or 120v. Why would one kill of one’s head room for a special or gobo, or in general save lamps but not electricity? This much less air conditioning loading due to the wasted heat? Is your stage bright enough now with HPL 575w/115v lamps? If the case, it once you replace all with long life 575w/115v lamps will seem initially dimmer but your eyes will adjust. And imagine the head room you have for specials or important punch lights.

Main consideration for me is what’s your voltage at the fixture after all the dimmer trimming done which is a good basic idea? What was it before at the fixture given the HPL 575w/115v lamps? Consider the long life 115v lamps a step parallel or equal to the 120v high output versions. Someone else can do the math below in which best. In exchange for lamp life, you loose output and color temperature some. Dependant on your actual voltage, one or the other might work best in preserving more color temperature. Can play test them also but the math is better in eye fooled.

Concept is to drop down the entire stage some in light level - you won’t notice it if all done, and also drop your dimmer trim down by 10%. Walk into a room with a single lamp, it’s bright to an extent. Walk into a room with two lamps it’s just as bright in seeing it a few hours later.

Slight difference between what GE and Osram specify thus both presented:
Voltage and Light Output: The effect of voltage on the light output of a lamp is ±1% voltage over the rated amount stamped on the lamp, gives 3.1/2% more light or Lumens output but decreases the life by 13% and vise a versa.
Do not operate quartz Projection lamps at over 110% of their design voltage as rupture might occur. GE Projection, Ibid p.13
A 5% change in the voltage applied to the lamp results in
-Halving or doubling the lamp life
-a 15% change in luminous flux
-an 8% change in power
-a 3% change in current
-a 2% change in color temperature (0.4% change per1% voltage.)
Osram Technology and Application Tungsten halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics, p21

Goal should be to do the math in what you have for actual voltage at the fixture and output now in doing the math verses once you correct at the dimmers for a lower governed voltage and measure voltage at the fixture what will work out best in output for what situation you have. Goal is to keep them 575w and step down a bit on expected overall stage intensity of light. Once used to it - you are going back to the world when a EHD type Leko was fine of course. Don’t worry about it too much because magic in the theater was made back than and can still be made. (Sort of core cause for me - can we make magic with less lumens and color temperature?) They did it in the past so it should be carefully done in figuring out how to get back there over brighter isn’t better always. Skill and beam angle over the grid worth of PAR 64 cans as an option in the 80's I fought.

Perhaps this next generation needs to go green in balancing illuminance levels possible but not economic in wattage or green, verses what’s really needed for good illuminance levels assuming good design over throwing more light at the subject to cover a shortfall in design and staging.
 
This is well understood by me, and now by them. Unfortunately, they have just come thru a capital project, where the fluorescent work lights were mounted around the perimeter stage walls. Apparently it was not feasible or too expensive to install them over the fly space. So they are pretty useless, except for sweeping the floor. There is no possibility of rectifying this now.

But there are operations dollars to buy lamps, so that's where we are... All I can do is help them get the best lamps. I guess I'm leaning towards 750/120X and see if we can set the Sensor rack to limit output to 85-90 percent. Under-driving the 120V lamps will further help lamp life.

They have Unison stations for every day use. I will also help them set the presets to use fewer fixtures and lower settings.

PS- The capital project also gave us about 20 too many S4-26's and 20 too few S4-50's... Anybody want to trade...??!

What about dedicating some cyc cells, scoops, or contractor halogens converted to stage plugs to work lights? Yes, you're still burning the theatrical lamps, but by using large floods, you're burning far fewer fixtures that can probably be spared from production use.
 
This would require some construction, but here we also have a perimeter of fluorescents. However, we also have two 150W metal halide floods on either side of the stage. With those we can nearly light the house as well. Installing something like that would not be simple, though.
 
What about dedicating some cyc cells, scoops, or contractor halogens converted to stage plugs to work lights? Yes, you're still burning the theatrical lamps, but by using large floods, you're burning far fewer fixtures that can probably be spared from production use.

This would be my recommendation as well, and it's what I did when I was in high school. Teachers would always turn on all the lights and forget to turn them off, so I eventually just started hanging a pair of 6" Fresnels over the stage focused down and at full flood, and they worked reasonably well as worklights. Yes I was still burning instruments and lamps, but I had extra 6" Fresnels and way more BTL lamps than I could ever use, so it made sense for me.

Even in a space with adequate installed worklights, I personally prefer to hang supplementary works (Mini-10s or Altman Q-Lites) on a per-show basis - usually brighter, less annoying shadows from masking, and it can sometimes keep the scenic painters happy when they're working on stage.
 
We have plenty of power available. Two lightly loaded ETC Sensor racks... I have been trying to get them to go no higher than 80-90% to extend lamp life. They are music teachers, but willing to learn..

90% good. 80% not good! Once you get below a certain level, the halogen cycle stops and the life drops off!

Also, has anybody metered the line voltage? 120v is more likely these days then 115v. If the lamps are 115 and they are run at 120, they will not last their rated life.

As noted several times above, awfully expensive work lights!
 
Use a volt meter and see what your voltage is. If your getting more than 115volts than that will shorten your lamp life on the 115v rated lamps. I would change over to using the 120v rated lamps Also install extended life lamps if the kelvin and lumen difference doesn't matter to much to you. You won't be saving any more of anything if you switch 575 to 750. Even at a 90%. Use 575 and run them at 90%.

But like what most other say, Install some work lights. The money is there when you start saving electricity use from the stage light not being on and not working the HVAC so hard. Plus the savings of reducing the stage lights from being on. Gels, Gobo, Lamps, Lamp Sockets, Labor to cover all the above.
 
The following table has been around quite some time, though I don't recall where I first found it. Whether or not the OP wants to dim below 90% is entirely up to measurements taken and/or lamp manufacturer's recommendations.


Act Voltage-Ave life-total output-Act Watts
85%...... 825% .... 58%...... 78%
90% ..... 400% .... 70%...... 85%
95% ..... 200% .... 84%...... 93%
100% ... 100% .... 100%.... 100%
105% ... 54% ...... 119% ... 108%
110% ... 29% ...... 138%.... 116%
115% ... 16% ...... 160%.... 124%


(just found this too)
A 5% change in the voltage applied to the lamp results in:
-Halving or doubling the lamp life
-a 15% change in luminous flux
-an 8% change in power
-a 3% change in current
-a 2% change in color temperature (0.4% change per1% voltage.)
Osram Technology and Application Tungsten halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics, p.21
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/documents/ENGR_BLTN9.9eec8e28-950e-4995-a67e-ceddfc343c65.pdf
 
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...
Act Voltage-Ave life-total output-Act Watts
85%...... 825% .... 58%...... 78%
90% ..... 400% .... 70%...... 85%
95% ..... 200% .... 84%...... 93%
100% ... 100% .... 100%.... 100%
105% ... 54% ...... 119% ... 108%
110% ... 29% ...... 138%.... 116%
115% ... 16% ...... 160%.... 124%


(just found this too)
A 5% change in the voltage applied to the lamp results in:
-Halving or doubling the lamp life
-a 15% change in luminous flux
-an 8% change in power
-a 3% change in current
-a 2% change in color temperature (0.4% change per1% voltage.)
Osram Technology and Application Tungsten halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics, p.21
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/documents/ENGR_BLTN9.9eec8e28-950e-4995-a67e-ceddfc343c65.pdf
Anyone want to run the numbers against the formulas below to see how accurate Kelite's tables are?

From Mathematical Formulas for Lighting - ControlBooth :
lumens/LUMENS = (VOLTS/volts)^3.4

life/LIFE = (VOLTS/volts)^13 (I.e., reduce the volts to 90% and the life increases by 393%!)

EFFICIENCY/efficiency = (VOLTS/volts)^1.9

watts/WATTS = (volts/VOLTS)^1.6
(not 'squared' as you would get with a fixed resistance)

coltemp/COLTEMP = (volts/VOLTS)^0.42

Here's a handy Excel workbook to get you started: LampFormulas2.xls
 

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