Wire House Lights directly into dimmer rack

[epimetheus]

You sure you want to go with incandescent lighting? There is a lot of pressure to make incandescent a thing of the past. To do a new install, I would opt for some of the LED solutions out there. We just got done converting about 30k of incandescent house lighting over to LED in my church. 2700 is a must as far as color in a church. The results are impressive, and our wattage draw is down over 85%. Dimming curve is also impressive. Yes, they cut out at about 5% or less, but smooth above that number. Stick with major brands and try before you buy. Not all LEDs are created equal.

JD, what fixtures did your church go with?

 

[JD]

JD, what fixtures did your church go with?

(Post directly above)

 

[MNicolai]

Actually, we went with direct replacement (screw in) LED lamps in the old incandescent fixtures. All of our 95 watt PAR38s were changed to 17 watt LED (~$38), all the 75 watt A style lamps were changed to 12.5w LED (~$23), all the 75 watt R30's got changed to 13w LED (~$29). Over 100 lamps were changed out in phase 1 resulting in a massive reduction in house light energy. As the PAR38s were at 40 foot height, the savings in labor over the expected 50,000 hour life should also be massive. (To say nothing of not having to look at burned out bulbs for years until you can justify another re-lamping.)

Another advantage is I could now free up about ten 3.6kw dimmers and use them for something else, although I haven't gotten around to it yet.

How's the dimming curve and the color temp?

So far the tests we've done on direct replacements have failed us in their color temperature and at
dimming.

 

[JD]

We went with 2700 except for the A style which is 2650. As one might expect, they are very warm and full feeling at 100% but shift slightly toward blue as you lower them. I would say the shift is slight as no one has noticed they are not the old incandescents! (outside of those involved with the project.) I have sat there (OCD) playing with the dimmer and for house lights, the curve is acceptable. 95% of the time they are simply on at 100%. If they are faded out, it is usually on a 10 count. If you knew they were LED and watched for the shift and drop-out at 5%, you would see it. There is no question that the curve is modified, but again, for house lights I find it acceptable and am happy with the results.

Definitely blows away the CFL options we tried. The PAR38s are TCP, the A and R30 are Phillips. (The A style is the little orange 3 segment lamp. The segments do not cast shadows in the fixture, which surprised me. This is due to the fact that the light is generated at the surface of the lamp. Strange!)

 

[covenantseth]

We went with 2700 except for the A style which is 2650. As one might expect, they are very warm and full feeling at 100% but shift slightly toward blue as you lower them. I would say the shift is slight as no one has noticed they are not the old incandescents! (outside of those involved with the project.) I have sat there (OCD) playing with the dimmer and for house lights, the curve is acceptable. 95% of the time they are simply on at 100%. If they are faded out, it is usually on a 10 count. If you knew they were LED and watched for the shift and drop-out at 5%, you would see it. There is no question that the curve is modified, but again, for house lights I find it acceptable and am happy with the results.

Definitely blows away the CFL options we tried. The PAR38s are TCP, the A and R30 are Phillips. (The A style is the little orange 3 segment lamp. The segments do not cast shadows in the fixture, which surprised me. This is due to the fact that the light is generated at the surface of the lamp. Strange!)

Did those 17W LED's even come close to the same brightness as the old ones? I would probably be fine with going LED in a normal recessed fixture but I was under the impression that a normal screw in LED bulb wouldn't compare to the light output of an the previous. . .

 

[derekleffew]

If you go with JD's approach and install traditional downcan s with screw in LED bulb s, you MUST buy lamp s that say DIMMABLE on the package. These cost a little more than the non-dimmable ones, and will still have "bink on/off" at the low end of the dimming curve, which may be slightly alleviated by using a custom dimmer curve on the console. May or may not be a problem for you. It's a big problem with CFL lamps at the end of the show when the houselight s fade back up. Ask Gafftaper.

I just looked at lots of LED lamps at Ikea the other day.
Good:


You DON'T WANT to use lamps labeled thusly:

From EU - Energy-Saving Light Bulbs - How to read the packaging :

You should always check this logo for compact fluorescent lamps and LEDs, as many of them will not work when operated on standard dimmers. However, there exist also dimmable compact fluorescent lamps and LEDs, and improved incandescent bulbs are always dimmable.

 

[JD]

Did those 17W LED's even come close to the same brightness as the old ones? I would probably be fine with going LED in a normal recessed fixture but I was under the impression that a normal screw in LED bulb wouldn't compare to the light output of an the previous. . .

Yes, they were quite impressive. TCP# LED17E26P3827KFL 40 degree beam. 966 lumens. (The old incandescent lamps were rated at 900) They are fully dimmable. Most interesting is there are several energy rebate programs run by local electric companies that offset some of the install cost. To qualify, the lamps must meet a specific list of criteria. TCPs met this criteria. Also, they are not from China. (Made in USA) Price on these varies greatly, but we were able to get them for $38 each in a lot of 60.

Note: Once I found the $38 price online, I went to our local electrical supply house. They had quoted $47 per lamp. After a lot of back-and-forth, they matched the $38 price on the order.

 

[Esoteric]

You're (more than) welcome.

However, as much as we like to offer assistance and opinions, we also have a saying around here:
Especially concerning rigging, electrical, and life-safety issues,

When in doubt, always consult a qualified professional, in person. ​

Teh Internet is NO place to learn how to fly people, wire up a panel, or do your own pyro (among many other things).
Perhaps chausman can offer his years of experience and knowledge. He's local to you, and would probably come over and advise if you buy him lunch or a sixpack.
.

This is great advice. We do light electrical work, but when we do we contract engineers, master electricians (necessary to pull a permit), journeyman electricians (needed to run the job site in these parts), etc and we still hit problems from time to time (for example a recent install we did there was no battery backup for the house lights which were being used as emergency lighting as none was specified in the contract and the space failed its inspection for insufficient emergency lighting). There is so much to think about in these situations you need to hire a professional.

And $2k is a good deal. For a job like this that is right on target. The $13k budget is just unrealistic.

I still have never seen a LED replacement lamp or pendant fixture that I find acceptable other than the Affineon gear. We did however just finish a house light install on a budget with American DJ FlatPAR CWWW units and I was shocked at how nice they looked and how well they worked.

 

[Les]

I still have never seen a LED replacement lamp or pendant fixture that I find acceptable other than the Affineon gear. We did however just finish a house light install on a budget with American DJ FlatPAR CWWW units and I was shocked at how nice they looked and how well they worked.

Have you taken a look at the Altman Chalice yet? I haven't, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you have.

 

[Esoteric]

Have you taken a look at the Altman Chalice yet? I haven't, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you have.

I have heard about it Les, but my distributor's Altman Rep is SLOW in getting me a sample. I need to call him Monday. I will let you know as soon as I get a sample/pricing. I am just a little suspicious when a manufacturer takes so long to get samples and pricing out there. If it does what it says and comes in cheaper than the Affineon then I could use (and sell) a LOT of them.

Mike

 

[JChenault]

Have you taken a look at the Altman Chalice yet? I haven't, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you have.

I got to look at the Altman spectra cube which is reputed to have the same fade engine as the chalice. My observation was that in 16 bit mode, with smoothing enabled to was quite acceptable. No viesable steps in the curve. No visible pop at the low end

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We've tested the chalice - which is a spectra par basically - and pretty good. We've not been satisfied with Affineon - 2 or 3 projects - especially tech support - but it does look ok. Slightly flaky dmx board. Gotham, an Acuity brand who also owns Pathport, has some very promising LED downlights. We are constantly looking for options and testing them. some are good enough for most applications, but none dim as beautifully as quartz.....yet.

 

[Esoteric]

We've tested the chalice - which is a spectra par basically - and pretty good. We've not been satisfied with Affineon - 2 or 3 projects - especially tech support - but it does look ok. Slightly flaky dmx board. Gotham, an Acuity brand who also owns Pathport, has some very promising LED downlights. We are constantly looking for options and testing them. some are good enough for most applications, but none dim as beautifully as quartz.....yet.

Yeah, I have seen Gotham's stuff. Not as smooth as Affineon and it has the LED click at the end which Affineon does not. So-so gear. Okay for most applications but not for theater or church house lighting.

That is the first I have heard about their tech support. I have never had an issue with it but that isn't to say that they don't have problems.

So far you just can't beat the look of their stuff though for imitating incandescent. I am still waiting on the Chalice though.

Mike

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Did you see the DMX controlled Gotham or just teh 0-10 or line voltage? We thought the DMX version was pretty good fading to off.

 

[Esoteric]

I saw the DMX controlled unit. They were pretty good, and would be useful commercially, but not good enough to be used for house lights IMHO.

Mike

 

[museav]

I am putting together a lighting/video and sound system for a church's new sanctuary. They want their lights to be dimmable. I am picking out the fixtures and equipment for this project and have a few questions. I have never put together a system that included the house lights.

Applying my Consultant perspective, you usually start with figuring out what it is you are trying to do and then develop a design to support that, basically define the problems and then develop solutions for the problems defined. So it might help to identify the goals, needs, conditions, etc. that you and/or the church have established before getting into any specific equipment or wiring.

For example, do they want to use the house lights for cleaning and maintenance where they may want greater illumination at floor level? Do you want to hace multiple circuits so you can have light over the congregation but not on stage or brighter over FOH? Is anyone addressing which lights have to always be on or be on fail-safe circuits for safety? Are you considering cost of operation? Have you coordinated the lighting layout with ductwork and diffusers/return grilles, sprinkler pipes and heads and all the other stuff involved in a ceiling?

Off topic but looking at your renderings, you have a very broad audience area, are you thinking you'll have stereo for the entire audience from the two speakers shown? Is that ramp actually ADA compliant or are you not worried about that?

 

[covenantseth]

Applying my Consultant perspective, you usually start with figuring out what it is you are trying to do and then develop a design to support that, basically define the problems and then develop solutions for the problems defined. So it might help to identify the goals, needs, conditions, etc. that you and/or the church have established before getting into any specific equipment or wiring.

For example, do they want to use the house lights for cleaning and maintenance where they may want greater illumination at floor level? Do you want to hace multiple circuits so you can have light over the congregation but not on stage or brighter over FOH? Is anyone addressing which lights have to always be on or be on fail-safe circuits for safety? Are you considering cost of operation? Have you coordinated the lighting layout with ductwork and diffusers/return grilles, sprinkler pipes and heads and all the other stuff involved in a ceiling?

Off topic but looking at your renderings, you have a very broad audience area, are you thinking you'll have stereo for the entire audience from the two speakers shown? Is that ramp actually ADA compliant or are you not worried about that?

Thanks for the reply

1. The way we will be wiring the lights will be in banks. This way we can project light on the people and not the stage

2. The lights will be for everything. Potlucks, cleaning, maintenance, ect.

3. Cost of operation is definitely in consideration. Bulb replacement cost, how often they are replaced, heat output, energy consumption ect.

4. Unfortunately I don't have access to HVAC contractor yet to determine placement of venting and ductwork. I don't believe this room requires sprinklers and there is nothing at this point to my knowledge that will be on the ceiling other than lighting and projection.

Off topic but looking at your renderings, you have a very broad audience area, are you thinking you'll have stereo for the entire audience from the two speakers shown? Is that ramp actually ADA compliant or are you not worried about that?

Haha. This was a preliminary rendering to show the scale. We will be running a 3 speaker line array on each side of the stage using the QSC KLA12's and the KW181 Powered Subs. Best line array speaker system in that price range in my opinion. We will be hooking them up with 6 of the KLA12's and 2 of the KW181's BRAND NEW for a little under $13,000. I'm stoked.

The ramp we actually were able to get them to let us put it in the adjacent room so it doesn't end up in the actual sanctuary, praise the Lord!

Here is the updated rendering

 

[covenantseth]

With your budget of $13,000 for a lighting system don't spend 15% on design fees. But in the end your budget is just too small and unrealistic. (Well, if the consultant can convince your management to spend 2 to 3 or more times what is budgeted, then they're worth it.)

No doubt. If I could convince them I would have them go with these,

Church Production Magazine Products

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I'd be surprised if code didn't require fire sprinklers but possible. Just the suggestion of adjacent building and the types of construction suggests there is enough area to require sprinklers. Also accessibility requires the acceesible route in the room if there is a route otherwise - which there clearly is. Doesn't mean everyone understands the rules nore that you won't get away with it - but it's pretty clear. The IBC says: "1108.2.8 Performance areas. An accessible route shall directly connect the performance area to the assembly seating area where a circulation path directly connects a performance area to an assembly seating area. An accessible route shall be provided from performance areas to ancillary areas or facilities used by performers. " That means not having to go out of the room, up a ramp or lift, and back onto the platform if you are in a wheelchair, and yet without a wheelchair you can step right up.

 

[church]

These are the kind of questions the $2k lighting designer already knows the answers to. Building codes state different levels of illumination for different purposes. Aesthetically, 2700K light may be more desirable than 5600, but not if a low CRI. You may not be allowed to install 300W incandescent lamps, as a greater efficacy may be required in your jurisdiction. Additionally, in a commercial building, particularly a place of public assembly, you'll need a licensed electrical contractor to perform the work, a permit application for the work to be performed, and an inspection by the AHJ. Emergency / egress lighting must be considered, as well as possibly an architectural lighting control system. You probably don't want the custodian to have to know how to turn on the lightboard in order to turn on the houselight s to vacuum the auditorium. Likewise, wall switch es / entry station s inside each door might be desirable/required, but you don't want an audience member turning on the houselights in the middle of a performance. The houselights might want/need to be fed from a different electrical service than the stage dimmers.

Sorry for more questions than answers. Look at the listed above manufacturers' websites for information on their architectural systems. Keep asking questions; we'll keep providing non-answers.
.

Derek makes a number of good points in his post, the $2k to do the design sounds very competitive. Up here in frozen Canada that design needs and engineer's seal on it. If it doesn't you need to pray (pun intended) that you: a) never have a problem and/or b) you never get caught because it will cost you a lot more than $2k.