Yamaha LS9 ?

[SHARYNF]

I was merely commenting on how a school might use it.

Typically the school MIGHT like to use cobra net for monitors and at the same Time record. It is not so much that they use all 48 or 32 inputs at the same time, but that they typically might use all 32 during the whole show, and it is just simpler to not submix but just record all the channels. I have just found that when people tend to try to do a sub mix, and a record mix and a FOH mix all at the same time things tend to get screwed up if you are not all that experienced so the "fix it in post" where you have all the inputs that you can play with makes recorvery easier


Our setup varies

In the Smallish deals where we are doing foh monitor and video recording/broadcast
We have a three way iso split A&H at FOH for say 32 channels, Monitors fed from the iso varies sometimes we use a couple of Yamaha 03d's and we have an 32 channel Intelix Psych if we are using a lot if individual monitor mixes (this system can create 8) and then we have cascaded 02r's fed from the iso for recording 32 channels directly to the hd24's via Adat, and since we have spare recording tracks we will also typically send a mixed feed from FOH to e hd24's along with some house mics for ambiant and audience. The mixed feed from the 02r's is typically what we are using to feed the video broadcast.

Sharyn

 

[SHARYNF]

My comments were mainly aimed a possible uses for schools etc where we do some design/consulting work

Here they typically don't have an elaborate setup and so it would be nice to be able to have a good foh system, use cobra net for monitor mix etc, and then since a lot of them now want to do some recording, it would be nice for them to be able from foh just feed directs to a HD recording system (could be HD24 or protools or nuendo etc) and then just capture all the tracks to have available later to do some final mix down off line later

Sharyn

 

[Chris15]

Would it not be an option to use cobranet cards in the mixer and get a cobranet to ADAT or whatever interface for the recording, so that you just run a cobranet feed into your recording setup? I gather that this should be possible and that a single set of inputs should be able to feed multiple outputs. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jbeutt]

You could. What I believe Sharyn wants the cobranet for is doing monitor mixes. So in this sense, it doesn't fit with the ability to do direct outs. That's really what we're talking about here. My feeling is that if you already need the analog split for the video truck, just use that to record "direct outs". The downside is that you need preamps on top of that setup.

 

[SHARYNF]

Exactly, It is just when the come out with a new product it is always fun to play what could they have done better. I think it will be quite successful, I tis amazing how many semi pro setups use 01v96, add the additional adat cards and then use Behringher ADA8000 preamp units for additional inputs, The ADA800 has this oddity that there is no preamp in to direct out, but you have the adat connections.

Nothing is perfect ;-)

Sharyn

 

[JSFox]

Does the LS9 not have any DCA's (or a DCA/Sub function)?

 

[jbeutt]

If you're talking about mix buses, it has 16.

 

[soundlight]

After reading the manual, I don't think so. But it's entirely possible that I missed something...I didn't read it very thoroughly, it was in the 20 minutes that I had before a class. (If you're talking about the Digitally Controlled Amplifier, the equivalent of the Voltage Controlled Amplifier.) Hope that I got that one right...

 

[JSFox]

Yes, DCA's (same functionally as VCA's or Sub's (not the same as a mix or matrix)). EG, when a band plays I want Kick & Bass on 1, Drums on 2, Perc on 3, Guitars on 4, Inst's on 5, Vocals on 6, Loop on 7. Every board including a $800 mackie has them in some form or another. I can't find them in any of the functionality of the LS9.

 

[jbeutt]

There different ways of accomplishing this on a digital console.

You can mix down to one of the 16 busses and route them back to your LCR outputs. For example, drum kit or backing vox to its own bus. This is different than an analog console because you have control over the internal routing. So buses become ambiguous and you can choose between routing them as auxes or just sub-groups. Not very much different conceptually than an analog board, except that there are no hard outputs for a given bus or group, you define them allowing for much more flexability.

You can also link channels for a similar effect. This is closer to the methodology of a VCA, however on the LS9, as well as other consoles, you can link more parameters than level, like eq and whatnot.

 

[JSFox]

Jack, you may be right. All of the other digital boards I've used had regular VCA's (or subs) as well as aux mixes and matrix, but I think it would be possible to setup mixes on the LS9 to function as VCA's since assignment can be on/off (instead of variable). Not necessarily neat and clean, but perhaps doable.

Thanks for the input.

 

[NeilW]

I can't find any reference to DCA's in the user manual or brochure I have for the LS9. I guess that this is probably one of the ways that Yamaha has reduced the functions on the LS9 compared to a 32 channel M7. Also, I wonder how many people in the target market for the LS9 are familiar with VCA operation anyway.

Someone mentioned that every board has them... well most boards have subgroups yes, but i cant think of all that many smaller frame consoles that have true VCA controls, and as mentioned above, the LS9 can do subgroups still, with inserts and that kinda thing. There seems to be a bit of confusion about the difference between subgroups and VCA's as well, think it has been covered on control booth previously, the only difference when using a digital desk is the naming of these functions, yamaha for example use mix busses and DCA's, whilst DiGiCo call their "vca" function control groups.

If you need DCA's than a 32 channel M7 or above will do the job!
Neil

 

[BenSounds]

The two complaints I've heard concern the lack of DCA's and the somewhat less warm sound of the mic pre's. Now I feel I must add the caveat that the sound of the mic pre's (actually on the Mc7) was being compared to the sound of mic pre's on a Cadac F-Type, hardly an apples to apples comparison. It's like anything, the LS9 is one tool, and it's one we're giving some serious consideration to. It's a lot of live board in the price point.

 

[JSFox]

Well, personally I prefer the pre's on a Neve 88, but we don't have the booth space so we've decided not to go that route!

You're absolutely right, there are a variety of tools for different purposes and perhaps more importantly different price points. I would love to get this school an MC7 and have taken a close look at some budget options to do it, but we'd have to give up alot of other stuff like more mics, IEM's, and a couple of VL1000's so it'd be no go. Compared to the TT24 and other options in the sub $9k range the LS9 is looking OK. For the money it appears to be the best option out there. Hope to see mine in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

[Peter]

Ok... now the question is how would I go about getting a demo of this board to know if my college should buy one for what we do? Should I try calling rental companies in the area or ....? I think all the places we would buy it from are rather far away. I'm in central MA if that helps at all!

 

[Andy_Leviss]

Just a quick non-Yamaha specific clarification on a very BIG misunderstanding in a few of the above posts. Namely, DCAs/VCAs and sub-groups are NOT at all the same thing, although it's easy to get them confused.

DCAs/VCAs are only a level control, and are entirely independent of any routing. Each channel assigned to a DCA/VCA retains any routing it's assigned, regardless of what other channels assigned to the same DCA may be routed to.

Subgroups are actual mix busses, where the channels assigned to a group are mixed together into a single bus, which can then be further routed to other outputs (matrices or main outs), if desired.

A subgroup fader is an actual level control that controls only the level of that mixed-together group bus. If the channels assigned to it are also routed elsewhere, the levels to those other outputs are unaffected.

DCA/VCA faders are essentially remote controls for the channels...if a channel is assigned to a DCA, that DCA fader affects that channel everywhere it is routed (excepting pre-fader sends, of course).

If you assign a channel to more than one group, and then mix those groups together, you'll end up with distortion from the overloading caused my double-/multiple-bussing. You can readily assign a channel to multiple DCAs/VCAs, although there are certain quirks of how this works that need to be understood to effectively use it. (This is often done, for example, to have DCA faders for the entire band, and then one for just the drums, or for all the backup singers, but then also to be able to tweak the balance between men and women, among others.)

There's a bit more to it than this, if you study in-depth (I recommend the guide to VCA mixing you can find on Allen & Heath's website as a basic introduction), but the key to remember is that in subgroups, the audio signals actually get mixed together; in VCAs/DCAs, the audio signals remain completely independent, all that is linked is their relative levels.

There are a lot of great reasons to use VCAs, although they're certainly an advanced feature. If there's enough interest, at some point once things slow down a bit I'll post a tutorial on "varsity level" Broadway style mixing using VCA automation to make large shows manageable--this is how, although Broadway shows have dozens and dozens of inputs, the show is actually mixed 90% on somewhere around 12 faders!

--A

P.S.-There are no Mackie consoles that have VCAs. The TT24 might have DCAs, but I've never played with it long enough to find out; my interest in the console waned long before the DCA question ever came up.

 

[NeilW]

Thanks Andy, thats what i was trying to get at but you explained it far better than I could!

Neil

 

[Andy_Leviss]

You're most welcome, Neil...it took me a while to try to boil it down to simple terms, and I was still afraid I might have been a bit confusing.

Another way to put it is that VCAs allow you to do what most people who've never used/heard of VCAs use subgroups for, but without the compromises inherent in using actual subgroup busses.

 

[JSFox]

Andy, good overview.

 

[NeilW]

After some further thought, i think the VCA function on digital mixers is perhaps even more useful than on analogue desks, especially on some of the larger console offerings such as the Yamaha PM5D and the DiGiCo D5 and D1.
Whilst not such an issue on the LS9 and M7, where there is a fader per channel represented all of the time in the standard configurations, there is likely to be times on the other models where whole sections of channels are likely to not be immediately accessible on the surface. Using the PM5D as an example, there are only faders for either channels 1-24 or 25-48 at any one time, although the other set is only a button press away. So if the console is set up with a traditional input list (drums, percussion, bass, guitar, keys and vocals) it is quite possible that your inputs will spread across both layers. Without DCAs in this instance, it would not be easy to have control over a channel or group of channels that is not on the surface faders at that point. With the 8 DCAs available, it would be possible to assign all the drums to one fader for example which would be available in the centre of the console regardless of the page of the input faders. Finer adjustment would need swapping to the page with the drum inputs but for instant access to overall level would be useful. Furthermore, because it is a VCA style control it would also affect all post fade sends.

Im sure there are many other instances where DCAs prove to be valuable in digital mixing, another one that springs to mind with the yamaha consoles is DCAs in conjunction with fader flip modes for monitor mixing.

I hope this isnt too off topic from the LS9, I just think that as new surfaces continue to appear on the market there are more and more slighly different structures and operating techniqies than are likely to ever be possible with traditional analogue consoles of any size. Being able to exploit these is likely to add even more value to the use of digital consoles in the live environment.

Andy, it would be interesting to hear a bit more about "varsity level" broadway mixing with VCAs when you get the chance, as most of my exposure to them has been in concert and festival style situations.

Neil