LED Conversion Upcoming

In other various threads about LED fixtures, I had briefly alluded to a potential upcoming LED lighting conversion project in our district/community 600-seat PAC as part of a larger, $4.3 million district energy efficiency upgrade package. The resolutions for the referendum and financing for this project were officially approved this morning, and I believe the auditorium lighting portion of this package is approximately $521,000.

While this will of course be going out to bid, etc., there are a few essentials I know at this point. Included in the plans will be a new data distribution network with DMX drops at all lighting positions including a few portable nodes along with dimmer rack replacement for both stage and architectural lighting. Also, included, of course, are a multitude of LED fixtures - anywhere from 150-200 depending on exactly what is spec'ed.

In case anyone asks, it's a proscenium space with your standard assortment of school functions and concerts - assemblies, musicals, etc. - along with community-contracted shows that run the gammet of concerts/bands/musicians to plays and illusionists and more. Definitely an exciting time for sure, and while I've been doing fixture research, I'm just wondering if there are any other things to look out for or consider as we go through the design/spec/bid process?

You'll want to make sure your current (or new) console is up to the task of handling all of the new fixtures with an appropriate workflow for how you use the space.

Give some thought to how much work you want the installing contractor to perform in setting up the system. It's not uncommon, especially in that region, for a package of fixtures to get dropped into a room and unpackaged with no/minimal configuration. Maybe they'll get hung and assigned DMX/universe addresses, but not in a way that's useful to you. However much work you want the contractor to do in coordinating, documenting, and installing the initial light plot -- make sure those requirements make into the specifications.

In a similar vein, if you are having any control touch panels or preset stations installed, make sure you have a plan for what those need to be able to control. You do not want to end up with a touchpanel that has a bunch of faders on it and a color wheel. I've seen it happen a lot on new installs in that area and it makes the touchpanels effectively useless. You probably want to make certain you have some level of idiot-proof control available for basic presets so not everyone has to know how to use the console in order to do a basic presentation on stage.

Evaluate the full list of accessories. Make certain you have all of the barn doors, top hats, power cables, DMX cables, lenses, and so forth that you'll need with some to spare. If you think it's appropriate for how you use your space, also explore the option of going with Lex's new hybrid power/DMX cables. Makes stringing fixtures together much cleaner.

Consider how you will want to address your fixtures/dimmers and spread them across universes. It is probably smoothest to put the cyc fixtures and dimmers on their own universe because they'll never change. If you can, try your best to fit all of your general purpose fixtures on the same universe. This way whenever you rehang a plot you do not need to go through each individual fixture and assign new DMX addresses. If you come up with the semi-permanent system you want, sleep on it for awhile and think about it again. Then if you want the installing contractor to provide labels with DMX addresses and universes and fixture numbers on your fixtures, that's one less thing you have to worry about yourself when a pile of fixtures gets dumped on your stage.

How you choose to assign DMX universes around your venue will have implications for how many DMX cables you need, as well as where your nodes end up having to be. This could mean you'll need a handful of longer DMX cables available, or that you'll need more medium length cables you can string together for getting where you need to go from your nodes/jacks.

Make certain any training requirements you want for console training, dimmer/fixture maintenance, are written into the specification. ETC requires dealers provide X amount of training with a console sale. In that region I've seen this ignored time and time again.

Typically you want 2-3 sections of training. Entry-level user training for teachers/principal/etc on how to turn on basic looks. Mid-level training for students/regular users, and Advanced Technical training for yourself and anyone else who will be responsible for maintaining the systems. The advanced training is longer, in-depth, and covers all elements of the systems. It addresses all of the things students and faculty are going to come to you with questions about.

Thanks for the insight, and yes, a number of same things were concerns of mine as well. I know that we'll be ending up with anywhere between 150-200 fixtures, but I want to ensure we're not stuck with a large number of extra fixtures we don't need. For example, I want to ensure they include a package of moving heads (8-12 spot fixtures as well as 9-12 wash fixtures due to the fact we're dead hung, and I want some flexibility of focusing from the board when risers or other set pieces are on stage.

That being said, we'll be getting an output upgrade on our Ion to handle the additional output channels needed, so that should be good from the control side. I don't believe we're looking at touch panels but instead 5-button preset looks for the uneducated who enter.

I would make sure you have a preset station included you can record the 5-button presets from, probably parked in the booth. You're going to want to make changes and you're not going to want to call in a service tech every time to do it.

Also should factor in touch screens for your Ion if you don't already have them. It'll give you a lot more flexibility in using magic sheets, which you'll definitely want to use. The days of simply throwing faders to busk a show are gone.

Not sure what your procurement policies are for the project, but I would dig into how this purchase is going to be structured. Dimming & controls will probably be under the electrical contract, which makes sense since the theatrical contractor will provide the equipment and the electricians are responsible for mounting it and wiring it and getting it inspected. Installation of this equipment falls under their electrical permit.

Fixtures and accessories are more appropriately a prime contract via RFP. Then you're only paying the markup from the installing contractor. If it's part of the electrical contract, now you're talking about paying markup from the theatrical contractor, markup from the electrician, and if you have a general contractor on the project, their markup as well. Things become a good deal more expensive, and unlike with dimming and controls, the electricians play zero role in project management or installation of the fixtures package.

MNicolai said:

I would make sure you have a preset station included you can record the 5-button presets from, probably parked in the booth. You're going to want to make changes and you're not going to want to call in a service tech every time to do it.

Also should factor in touch screens for your Ion if you don't already have them. It'll give you a lot more flexibility in using magic sheets, which you'll definitely want to use. The days of simply throwing faders to busk a show are gone.

Not sure what your procurement policies are for the project, but I would dig into how this purchase is going to be structured. Dimming & controls will probably be under the electrical contract, which makes sense since the theatrical contractor will provide the equipment and the electricians are responsible for mounting it and wiring it and getting it inspected. Installation of this equipment falls under their electrical permit.

Fixtures and accessories are more appropriately a prime contract via RFP. Then you're only paying the markup from the installing contractor. If it's part of the electrical contract, now you're talking about paying markup from the theatrical contractor, markup from the electrician, and if you have a general contractor on the project, their markup as well. Things become a good deal more expensive, and unlike with dimming and controls, the electricians play zero role in project management or installation of the fixtures package.

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Sorry, we do have two touch screens for our Ion. I assumed you were talking about house control/preset looks and didn't read closely enough.

I also should mention, we had a preliminary meeting back in Spring regarding the scope of this project, and McKinstry, who received the overall contract for this, had brought in a rep from one of the main theatrical lighting providers in Wisconsin, but I won't name names though it should be pretty easy to figure out. I haven't heard specific procurement procedures yet either but have been assured by our superintendent I'll be included on this.

sdauditorium said:

Sorry, we do have two touch screens for our Ion. I assumed you were talking about house control/preset looks and didn't read closely enough.

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You were right. First I was talking about Paradigm touch panels. Last comment though was about Ion.

Congrats on the new LED's, but I always chuckle when they sell Theatrical lighting on the basis of "energy savings" For example at a little less than 10 cents per KWH your 575 Watt source four costs you about 5 cents per hour to run. The new Phoenix elipse 250 watt LED replacement costs you about 2 cents an hour to run and costs about 1300 bucks. 3 cents per hour savings.... 1300/.03/365/24=4.9 years... So you have to run the new Phoenix 24 hours a day for 5 years to break even on energy savings.... and you didn't do much for sea level rise either. You can argue lesser cooling costs for the building... but the point is... Theater lighting in a high school runs for a few hours at most over about 3 weeks for each show. Aint never gonna save dat. New construction... OK you don't need that 50000 watt feed into the auditorium any more etc.. But lets get real... You get LED because they are versatile.. and you don't have to get to wonky places to re lamp. General auditorium lighting without specialized fixtures that is on all the time... bingo you save a ton. Now don't anyone tell the grant writers I said this. But what do I know, I'm just a Veterinarian, and self edjumacated enjuneer. Oh and by the way, if they send you too many, I will store them off site for you, and periodically test for function.

jtweigandt said:

Congrats on the new LED's, but I always chuckle when they sell Theatrical lighting on the basis of "energy savings" For example at a little less than 10 cents per KWH your 575 Watt source four costs you about 5 cents per hour to run. The new Phoenix elipse 250 watt LED replacement costs you about 2 cents an hour to run and costs about 1300 bucks. 3 cents per hour savings.... 1300/.03/365/24=4.9 years... So you have to run the new Phoenix 24 hours a day for 5 years to break even on energy savings.... and you didn't do much for sea level rise either. You can argue lesser cooling costs for the building... but the point is... Theater lighting in a high school runs for a few hours at most over about 3 weeks for each show. Aint never gonna save dat. New construction... OK you don't need that 50000 watt feed into the auditorium any more etc.. But lets get real... You get LED because they are versatile.. and you don't have to get to wonky places to re lamp. General auditorium lighting without specialized fixtures that is on all the time... bingo you save a ton. Now don't anyone tell the grant writers I said this. But what do I know, I'm just a Veterinarian, and self edjumacated enjuneer. Oh and by the way, if they send you too many, I will store them off site for you, and periodically test for function.

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I'm not arguing that at all and am well aware; however, that was not the emphasis of the discussion. On the same hand, it's not my place to talk them out of something, and as you astutely mention, I see the numerous benefits for us in terms of everything else you mentioned and am ecstatic of course. I'm self-educated in this world as well and am, like the rest on here, a self-professed tech geek regardless. Ultimately, my goal now is to do whatever I can to try to steer any purchases so that the investment is as wise as it can be and can support current and future events to the best degree possible.

Here's my current fixture package that I'm spec'ing:

• 24 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (19 deg)
• 20 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (26 deg)
• 20 - ETC ColorSource Spot (36 deg)
• 20 - ColorSource Spot (50 deg)
• 13 - Rogue R2 Wash
• 12 - Maverick MK1 Spot
• 15 - Desire D60 Vivid or Lustr (not sure yet)
• 16 - ColorSource Cyc (ground and top)
• 2 - Altman UV 705
• 18 - ColorSource Par
• 4 - Elation Protron 3K Strobe
• DMX cables, lens tubs, lenses as needed
• Nomad and Output Upgrade for our Ion

I'm feeling pretty good about things, and hopefully our procurement procedures will allow this to happen.

I'm curious about the reasoning behind the mix of the Series 2 and Colorsource spots, and the D60 and Colorsource pars. Are there particular uses and/or hang locations where only one or the other will work?

epimetheus said:

I'm curious about the reasoning behind the mix of the Series 2 and Colorsource spots, and the D60 and Colorsource pars. Are there particular uses and/or hang locations where only one or the other will work?

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Good question. Series 2 for longer throw and FOH applications primarily. ColorSource Spots and Pars will be used primarily on stage along with gobo breakups, high sides, dance booms. D60s primarily for top light on the electrics, R2 Washes and the MK1s spread throughout a few different positions for focusable (is that a word) specials. I want the versatility as we often have multiple events within a short time frame, and since we're dead hung, always have issues re-gelling/focusing between.

Ideally, I'd go with all Series 2 if the budget was unlimited, and I'm not sure how sold I am on ColorSources and both their output at farther distances and pastels/whites.

We're also in the process of converting our house lights to LED, at least the dimmable incandescent PAR38s we have on tracks...we're leaving the fluorescent tubes alone for now until they need changing in another five years.

For a replacement dimmer since we no longer need the 20amp rotary dimmer that can only be controlled in the booth, we're going with a high-end consumer dimmer that comes with a couple of battery operated remotes...it's only a 180 seat auditorium we don't need a fancy system, it's something like this one:

@mikefellh, Presumably you have some form of dedicated emergency house lighting then tied into your fire alarm panel?

sdauditorium said:

Here's my current fixture package that I'm spec'ing:

• 24 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (19 deg)
• 20 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (26 deg)
• 20 - ETC ColorSource Spot (36 deg)
• 20 - ColorSource Spot (50 deg)
• 13 - Rogue R2 Wash
• 12 - Maverick MK1 Spot
• 15 - Desire D60 Vivid or Lustr (not sure yet)
• 16 - ColorSource Cyc (ground and top)
• 2 - Altman UV 705
• 18 - ColorSource Par
• 4 - Elation Protron 3K Strobe
• DMX cables, lens tubs, lenses as needed
• Nomad and Output Upgrade for our Ion

I'm feeling pretty good about things, and hopefully our procurement procedures will allow this to happen.

Click to expand...

I've been delving a lot into these things, my excuse is that my college is getting a renovation in a couple of years, but mostly because I find it interesting to look at all the new shiny things. So IMHO...

I would go with Ovation E-290FC over the ColorSource Spots, for the increased output and amber emitters (plus they're a bit less.)
If you don't need the extra zoom of the Mk 1 spots, I would go for the Most 2s spots, to get the all rotating gobos and variable cmy filter, plus the extra output won't hurt. I Would also go for the Mk 2 profiles for FOH specials where the shutters, and higher CRI would make a difference.

Any way, lots of demos to come, have fun. Good lu... er break a (scenic) leg

Following up from Michael K's post - be sure to get demos, in the space not in a showroom and hang them where you will expect to hang them in the full installation - for a package this large that shouldn't be a problem.

I also would be wary of mixing Colorsource and Series2, not just because I think the Colorsource will give your specific applications more mileage, but because they're color engines and will produce colors differently even with the best color presets. Again - hang them and verify all assumptions before signing the purchase contract. (and I don't want to make this a fixture war, but different emitters in different pancakes with different drivers will just produce color differently.)

Also don't be afraid to look outside ETC. Chauvet's Ovation line has some great solid state fixtures and the full color spot goes toe to toe with the Colorsource line from ETC. (never tested it against a Series 2)

Last gear point - looking at your equipment list I don't see you mentioning gateways, nodes and switches. Past 1024 outputs you'll need to be running your rig from NET3 devices to get universe 3+ out of your system - and I don't think any of us recommend Wi-Fi for connecting Net3 devices.

On the power side of the situation, is there any provision for putting in relay modules or some other power management into the electrical runs for these fixtures? You can turn the output off from the ION, but you can't make these got to "sleep" and they'll happily keep running fans and PCB's around the clock. (cutting even deeper into any potential power dollar savings.)

Finally - have you thought through any additional training or setups you'll need to have for your casual user? With these LEDs you're going away from just being able to walk into the space, turn on a board and click "1 through infinity at full" and have a lit stage for the afternoon/evening presentation. Would adding in a small system of white-only emitter fixtures help with those situations?

Yes, LED's open up potentials and I think all lighting is heading there faster than I ever thought, but I would be aware of what I'm going to be asking all users of the facility to be competent to do.

Good luck and have fun, we're all a little envious of a project like this.

A couple of electrical points to consider..

The drivers on LED luminaires typically stay on unless you cut power to the luminaire. So you want to power up the luminaires at the start of a call and shut them off at the end of the day.

A great way to extend the life of your drivers is to use a DMX-controlled motorized-breaker panel to feed the LEDs.

Each breaker in the panel uses one DMX channel (stick them all in the same universe). These panels can be stand-alone products connected to a disconnect switch, or hard-wired like a regular breaker panel.

Some products can be loud so you’ll want to consider where the panel lives.

One caveat, inrush current - when powering up many LEDs simultaneously it can be huge (think of melting transformers). A way around this is to set up the motorized breaker panel with a small delay between each breaker at power-up - I believe single-digit millisecond delays are typical.

Higher-end LED luminaire manufacturers will provide a spec value for inrush current.

MNicolai said:

@mikefellh, Presumably you have some form of dedicated emergency house lighting then tied into your fire alarm panel?

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Don't know how I led you down that track, but yes we have dedicated self-contained emergency light units that have their own batteries (tested and replaced regularly) everywhere including bathrooms like the unit shown below, and a few years ago we updated our emergency exit lights from incandescent to battery backed up LED units so they stay lit during a blackout.

Gobokat said:

Following up from Michael K's post - be sure to get demos, in the space not in a showroom and hang them where you will expect to hang them in the full installation - for a package this large that shouldn't be a problem.

I also would be wary of mixing Colorsource and Series2, not just because I think the Colorsource will give your specific applications more mileage, but because they're color engines and will produce colors differently even with the best color presets. Again - hang them and verify all assumptions before signing the purchase contract. (and I don't want to make this a fixture war, but different emitters in different pancakes with different drivers will just produce color differently.)

Also don't be afraid to look outside ETC. Chauvet's Ovation line has some great solid state fixtures and the full color spot goes toe to toe with the Colorsource line from ETC. (never tested it against a Series 2)

Last gear point - looking at your equipment list I don't see you mentioning gateways, nodes and switches. Past 1024 outputs you'll need to be running your rig from NET3 devices to get universe 3+ out of your system - and I don't think any of us recommend Wi-Fi for connecting Net3 devices.

On the power side of the situation, is there any provision for putting in relay modules or some other power management into the electrical runs for these fixtures? You can turn the output off from the ION, but you can't make these got to "sleep" and they'll happily keep running fans and PCB's around the clock. (cutting even deeper into any potential power dollar savings.)

Finally - have you thought through any additional training or setups you'll need to have for your casual user? With these LEDs you're going away from just being able to walk into the space, turn on a board and click "1 through infinity at full" and have a lit stage for the afternoon/evening presentation. Would adding in a small system of white-only emitter fixtures help with those situations?

Yes, LED's open up potentials and I think all lighting is heading there faster than I ever thought, but I would be aware of what I'm going to be asking all users of the facility to be competent to do.

Good luck and have fun, we're all a little envious of a project like this.

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I wanted to keep my OP brief and had intentionally omitted all of the dimming changes. We are indeed swapping out our Strand CD80 rack and Strand house light control racks with a Sensor IQ 48 Relay rack and Unison DRd6 rack including a number of dual relay modules, preset stations around the house for less experienced folk and 13 networked DMX nodes including two Pathway Via5 switches throughout our lighting positions - including a few extra for portable, on-stage use.

We had considered just doing the Johnson Controls retrofit to our Strand rack, but at 30 years (I know they're workhorses), figured we should make the switch while we had the funding instead of potentially throwing money into something that *may* go bad sooner rather than later.

Michael K said:

I've been delving a lot into these things, my excuse is that my college is getting a renovation in a couple of years, but mostly because I find it interesting to look at all the new shiny things. So IMHO...

I would go with Ovation E-290FC over the ColorSource Spots, for the increased output and amber emitters (plus they're a bit less.)
If you don't need the extra zoom of the Mk 1 spots, I would go for the Most 2s spots, to get the all rotating gobos and variable cmy filter, plus the extra output won't hurt. I Would also go for the Mk 2 profiles for FOH specials where the shutters, and higher CRI would make a difference.

Any way, lots of demos to come, have fun. Good lu... er break a (scenic) leg

Click to expand...

Did you mean the Ovation E-910FC by chance? And instead of 2s spots, did you mean MK2? Just making sure