Buying Robotic lights

[derekleffew]

Especially with th elimitation in Control Channels.

Another funny typo. I didn't know Control Channels were "elimitated." Is that like removed and copied?

As you may or may not know, there are many different versions of the ETC Express. Manuals, datasheets, and specifications may be found here. We recently saw an advertisement online that shows a basic ETC Ion for less than the cost of any new Express. All would agree that the Ion is a better console for controlling "robotics" than the Express.

The Ion will ass?ist you more than the Express.

 

[Grog12]

Yeah...that one is pretty funny...though I find this one funny as well.

The Ion will ass?ist you more than the Express.

 

[icewolf08]

Two things I failed to point out.
The three basic steps to "the method"
1) You should never buy a DMX toy until you have enough conventional lights that you have extras not used in every show.
2) You shouldn't buy a mover until you have a full collection of components.
3) If you pass steps 1 and 2 then go ahead buy a mover if you have the budget and staff to use and maintain it... those lamps are expensive.
Point two:
So Mac 700's are what about $9k? And let's say you get a package rate of about $1700 for a Seachanger. That means for the price of four Mac 700's you can get TWENTY Seachangers. Think of the powerful impact of TWENTY CMY instruments on every design you do. True the four Macs will rock when you have a special need. But you will use those TWENTY CMY fixtures in every show. They will become the heart of your designs.
Thus a key point to the method is the fact that you can spend that money on components that you will ALWAYS use instead of just once in a while.

While I agree that component "toys" are good to have, I am still not sure if I agree that you need to have them before you buy MLs. Like I said, I have things like twinspins, I-Cues and scrollers in my inventory and yet more often than not I am hanging plots with MLs and not using the I-Cues, twinspins and sometimes not even using the scrollers.

So sure, you might be able to buy 20 Seachangers or many more scrollers for the cost of 4 MLs, but that doesn't negate the usefulness of the MLs in the inventory. Don't get me wrong, having "component" gear is amazingly useful, but it is not the same.

 

[gafftaper]

Char5lie, one of the biggest problems with trying to run movers on the Express is that it eats up dimmers. If you buy a moving light that requires 16 channels of DMX to control it. The Express needs the use of 16 dimmers in your rack, that can't be used for anything else, to make that happen. The new consoles don't have that problem. On an ION or Strand Palette, a moving light that has 16 control channels only needs one dimmer.
EDIT: Umm Ignore the above. Sounds like a problem I had with my early 80's EDI dimmers and early Express console is no longer a problem... see posts below.

Also the new boards have a wide variety of preprogrammed things to make designing easier. If you want the light to mix the color Fatherless Amber from Apollo, you don't have to spend 5 minutes adjusting values to get the color mix just the way you like. The new boards know what Fatherless Amber is and can create it in a few keystrokes. Likewise, the new boards have effects generators for color changing effects, movement effects, and intensity effects. All these things CAN be done with an Express but will take time to get the look programed just right instead of seconds on a new board. Getting a group of movers to dance in a circle together with an Express can take a half hour. With a new board its 2 minutes.

 

[Grog12]

Char5lie, one of the biggest problems with trying to run movers on the Express is that it eats up dimmers. If you buy a moving light that requires 16 channels of DMX to control it. The Express needs the use of 16 dimmers in your rack, that can't be used for anything else, to make that happen. The new consoles don't have that problem. On an ION or Strand Palette, a moving light that has 16 control channels only needs one dimmer.

Uhm....not exactly..you can use the 16 dimmers in the rack.

While the Express/Expression line labels them as dimmers in patch, what they are in actuality is DMX channels. Most Express consoles have 2 universes of DMX allowing for 1024 dimmers in the patch screen.

Here's what gaff is trying to get at and it references an earlier post made by myself; the Express line has a limted number of control channels. Hence why there are Express 24/48 and Express 48/96 ect. If you have 96 dimmers in your system with a Exprss 48/96 you can control every dimmer individually. If you have more than 96 dimmers you can still use the board you just have to start giving up individual control i.e. you patch two lights to the same channel.

"So Proffesor Grog, why is this a problem with Robotics?" Each of the 16 DMX channels (that the Express calls a dimmer) that the moving light needs to operate correctly needs an individual control channel to operate. Now if we have 96 dimmers and 96 conventionals we're going to have to soft patch two-fer 16 of them with something else to use 1 moving light. Clear as mud?

 

[soundman]

Char5lie, one of the biggest problems with trying to run movers on the Express is that it eats up dimmers. If you buy a moving light that requires 16 channels of DMX to control it. The Express needs the use of 16 dimmers in your rack, that can't be used for anything else, to make that happen. The new consoles don't have that problem. On an ION or Strand Palette, a moving light that has 16 control channels only needs one dimmer.

I think I understand what you are saying but the way you have phrased it could lead to some misunderstanding. Lets say you have an express that can address 190 channels. Yet you could patch 1024 dmx address (be it dimmers, scrollers, movers or whatever) to those 190 channels. If you have a rack of 96 dimmers the default set up will be that those dimmers will have address 1-96. If you want to add a mover at channel 90 at the board you can do that in two ways. In a one to one patch you could set the mover's address start at 90. Leaving the rack patch at 1-96 when you change the mover attributes that corrispond to the first 6 channels of the mover rimmers 90-96 will also change their values.

A way to get around killing those dimmers is to patch intelligently. By putting the mover at DMX address 97 you will not have any conflicts, to get it to respond to channel 90 at the board patch fixture 1 @ start channel 90 DMX channel 97 (thats using the express syntact) Using this method you will be able to use all 96 dimmers in the the rack just not in a 1 to 1 patch.

Make any sense?

 

[SerraAva]

Just two quick corrections Professor. First, the Express 48/96 can control 192 channels The 24/48 is 96 channels, 72/144 is 244 channels, 125 is 125 channels and 250 is 250 channels. An Expression 3 is 400, 800, or 1200 channels and the Insight 3 is 512 channels.

The second is all Express consoles have 2 universes. The Expression 3 and Insight 3 have 3, as well as duel monitor outs.

 

[Charc]

Just two quick corrections Professor. First, the Express 48/96 can control 192 channels The 24/48 is 96 channels, 72/144 is 244 channels, 125 is 125 channels and 250 is 250 channels. An Expression 3 is 400, 800, or 1200 channels and the Insight 3 is 512 channels.
The second is all Express consoles have 2 universes. The Expression 3 and Insight 3 have 3, as well as duel monitor outs.

Star Wars reference?

(Omgz, SerraAva is from Philly, I'll know this comment angered him if I get awakened by a 250kW strobe drive-by!)

 

[porkchop]

Star Wars reference?
(Omgz, SerraAva is from Philly, I'll know this comment angered him if I get awakened by a 250kW strobe drive-by!)

Nah a strobe drive by requires him to take something out of inventory, and who would want to do that just for a prank. All you have to do is wire the incandescents in your house to an effect and run it as fast as possible, trust me you'll think your epileptic afterwards and that's not fun.

 

[SerraAva]

Nah, that's easy enough porkchop, the drive by anyway. A lot of gear lives on the trucks because the warehouse is full soup to nuts with gear. Then again, so are a lot of the trucks. We need a bigger warehouse.

As for the monitors, they do like to fight over which when I am looking at, as well as which one has the cue list on it (swap button )

 

[porkchop]

full soup to nuts with gear

Never heard that saying before. I like it.

 

[NFazio]

i am currently running a show with 6 VL2500's and they are not the quietest things in the world.. but they are amazing lights. I would reccomend the VL3500Q Spots to you. they are quiet and have shutters and all.. Just overall amazing lights

 

[Grog12]

Just two quick corrections Professor. First, the Express 48/96 can control 192 channels The 24/48 is 96 channels, 72/144 is 244 channels, 125 is 125 channels and 250 is 250 channels. An Expression 3 is 400, 800, or 1200 channels and the Insight 3 is 512 channels.
The second is all Express consoles have 2 universes. The Expression 3 and Insight 3 have 3, as well as duel monitor outs.

Thank you TA Serra...my notes were a little incomplete during that post

 

[soundlight]

i am currently running a show with 6 VL2500's and they are not the quietest things in the world.. but they are amazing lights. I would reccomend the VL3500Q Spots to you. they are quiet and have shutters and all.. Just overall amazing lights

Now that's a light that you really want an ML board for, especially with the shutters. It's not a cheap light either, and probably over the price point. If the LD wants something with shutters, get a VL1000 shutter model.

 

[Spikesgirl]

Spoke with one of our regular LD's and he insisted that our Express board could run 300 robotic lights. Hmm, the other LD says probably one, maybe two.

Curiouser and curiouser

 

[soundman]

Spoke with one of our regular LD's and he insisted that our Express board could run 300 robotic lights. Hmm, the other LD says probably one, maybe two.
Curiouser and curiouser

You could run 300 movers off the express, just as long as you want them all to do the exact same thing and have enough optos to make sure the signal does not degrade

 

[Grog12]

Spoke with one of our regular LD's and he insisted that our Express board could run 300 robotic lights. Hmm, the other LD says probably one, maybe two.
Curiouser and curiouser

Utter bullsh...uhm I mean caca del torro!

300 individualy controled movers on an express is impossible.

 

[SerraAva]

I didn't know you were fluent in Spanish Professor .

They are correct, you are not fitting 300 movers on an Express. The most you can get at 20 channels a piece on a 1200 channel Expression 3 is 60, 75 at 16 channels a piece. If you have an Express 250, 15 at 16 channels a piece.

 

[Grog12]

Well my trusty TA...I'm just full of surprises!

And sure you could DMX adress a bunch of the fixtures together...but by that logic I could program an infinited amount of movers on any board I want.

 

[porkchop]

I agree with everyone else, but I can see where your LD is getting confused. Many more modern boards will allows you to put one fixture on a channel and use attributes of that channel to control all it's abilities (fixture 1 patched to channel 1 and channel 1.2 is pan channel 1.3 is tilt, etc....). That is my understanding on how the Strand 500 series works, I know ETC has something similar on their newer boards. I don't know how attributes (or whatever ETC calls them) go against your channel count but to my knowledge the Express line doesn't give you this ability to begin with so that's not really an issue. So you if you had a board that allowed attributes, and attributes didn't go against channel count, and you have a max of 300 channels on your board, yes you would have a max of 300 fixtures on that board (man that would be a pain), but that's just not how your board works.