Buying Robotic lights

[gafftaper]

Thanks for adding to my post Derek... my comments back:

The City Image multiplexer goes in the color frame slot so it's not a very good equivalent to a prism in a mover that can spin. I suppose if you put a rotator in the gate you could get some movement but it's not exactly the same.

Didn't know there was an auto focus on the Auto Yoke. Interesting... although I would still say just buy a Right Arm/I-cue... focus is a component product that Gaff's Method would say it's probably better just to rent the once a decade you need it.

As for the Colorfader, MXR, and CXI... True they are options but once you've gone Seachanger you'll never go back.

 

[lieperjp]

How much does a Seachanger cost for an S4?

 

[soundlight]

So I just lost my long and well thought out post to a bad wireless connection. I should really compose the long and well thought out posts in word so that doesn't happen. Anyway, here's the idea of what I said.

I do like the modular approach, with one exception: two good movers. I am all for purchasing all of the icues, rotators, dmx irises, right arms, infinity devices, filmfx devices, seachangers, and scrollers that you can, but get two real movers for specials. And if they're movers with a good zoom range, they'll also to be able to do special gobo/color washes of scenes that take place in a smaller area. I'm also a fan of movement of texture in a direction which can't really be detected. the best way to do this is with a slowly rotating prism, a slowly rotating gobo, and a slowly rotating animation wheel. What is the only kind of fixture that can have all of these features at once? A real mover.

These two main movers should have some key features:
-CMY
-Animation wheel
-Two gobo wheels, at least one rotating, with interchangeable gobos, and gobo morph capability
-Motorized Zoom (not step zoom, should go at least to 40 degrees if not 50)
-Motorized Focus
-Rotating Prism
-Motorized Iris
-Frost and CTO (CTO only if an arc source fixture, not for tungsten fixtures)

This is the approach that we'll be taking with our next upgrade here. We already have 23 scrollers(13 apollo smartcolor, 10 chromaQ), 12 rotators (6 dmx, 6 non), 2 filmFX devices, 2 strobe caps, 2 icues, 2 AF1000s, and 6 venerable old Intellabeam 700HXs for movers. The next upgrade will include plenty of seachangers, 4 more icues, 4 right arms, dmx irises, and two new movers, most likely Robe Colorspot 700E ATs or a comparable fixture.

That being said, I definitely think that the Colorspot 700E AT is the right fixture if you're going arc source moving head. They can be had for around $8500 each new, I think. If those knock out your whole budget, look for used Studio Spot CMY Zooms from someone who wants to move 'em fast to get cash for new fixtures. Looks like used x.Spots are also going for a decent price now, but I've never really liked those.

Oh, and Seachangers are going for around $1700 or so, I think. Maybe Gafftaper got a better price with how many he was buying.

 

[derekleffew]

From the Robe website for the Colorspot 700E AT:
Control channels: 26, 28, 31, 34 or 36.

Even with only two fixtures, could you imagine what a mess it would be programming those fixtures on an ImpressionI or II? Or even an Expression3?

This applies to any moving light: Whom is knowledgeable and available to fix it when it decides to not function properly during dimmer check one hour before curtain? And what parts should one stock?

 

[punktech]

just out of curiosity, and not to high-jack this thread, but what opinions do all of you have on S4 Revolutions? and what can one do when you have them addressed properly and the proper numbers in the board and they will not work?

 

[soundlight]

just out of curiosity, and not to high-jack this thread, but what opinions do all of you have on S4 Revolutions? and what can one do when you have them addressed properly and the proper numbers in the board and they will not work?

My opinion, and that of many people on this board and in the industry, is that the S4 rev was a flop. The VL1000, the nearest competitor, holds the market much more than the Rev does.

If you're having some specific problems with them, you might want to start a different thread so we can troubleshoot there instead of taking over this thread.

 

[derekleffew]

...and what can one do when you have them addressed properly and the proper numbers in the board and they will not work?

Most expedient solution: call ETC Service at 1.800.688.4116, 24/7/365. Every ETC owner should have this number posted next to the phone in the light booth.

Comparisons between the VL1000 and Revolution have been discussed here many times. Search for either, and you should get good results.

 

[Spikesgirl]

You guys are making my head hurt. I'm going to copy off the lot and turn them over to the LD guy. I'm sure he hasn't thought of some of your suggestions/options/choices!

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[gafftapegreenia]

IF you do end up getting movers, I suggest the two Colorspot 700E At's from Robe. We have two of them, along with 18 Seachanger profile units. We are currently programming on an Express, and while it takes some time to get it right, it's not impossible.

I love this gafftaper method. We need to start publishing informational pamphlets, and get a booth at LDI.

 

[gafftaper]

Derek started a collaborative article on "the Gafftaper method" in the Wiki using my post above. I've edited it a bit to make it a little less specific to this thread. My faithful disciples of the method are encouraged to add to the topic.


How much does a Seachanger cost you ask?
Here's the package
-Seachanger Profile XG
-16.5" yoke extension... you need a larger yoke than the standard one
-Mega Claw... these suckers are heavy, you don't want to use a standard c-clamp
-Edison Plug Connector for Seachanger power... it's a very low amp draw but can NOT be dimmed power.
-Source Four Body and Lens
-HPL 750 lamp... the Seachanger cuts down the output a bit so use 750's
-Connector for S4
As with many items the price depends on your relationship with the dealer and how large of a package you are buying but you should be able to get a Source 4 with a Seachanger for about $1800-$1900 ($1600ish if you don't need the S4). The bid price I got from Mainstage was substantially lower than others on the Seachangers, so be sure to give them a try. I'm guessing they have a deal with the manufacturer that others can't beat.

Seachanger Wash lights will cost you a little bit less because you only need to buy the S4 burner unit. You don't need the rest of the S4, only the portion with the lamp and reflector before the gate.

 

[Grog12]

You guys are making my head hurt. I'm going to copy off the lot and turn them over to the LD guy. I'm sure he hasn't thought of some of your suggestions/options/choices!
Thanks again for all the help!

HAha What do you expect when you ask a bunch of us lighting folk to talk about our favorite things?


Here's the one thing the page and a half hasn't addressed in attempts to sway towards "the method'. Your instituion has a learning component to it. That alone would make me want to see one or two movers on a rig.

Point 1) You only need one or two features at a time
Counterpoint: While this may be true at a given point during a show it doesn't mean you won't use function 3 and 4 at a different point during the show. Also I'm greedy, I want as many options open to me as I can have. I find Seachangers and Rightarms limiting in this. Yes you can get more units for the dollar, but you're losing flexibility. $1800 for CMY or $2500 for the whole package in a single unit.

Point 2) Do you really want to program on an Impression/Exression?
Counterpoint: People have been doing it for years. Its not as hard as they make it out to be. Yes its difficult, but there are a lot worse programming situations. Search my name and the Leprecon X24. Also you won't start looking at new boards until you have a need for a new board. A few years of programming movers the hard way and getting the people with money to realize you need more movers will also lead to a new board.

Point 3) Color temp.
Counterpoint: Any designer worth a lick of salt plans for this and doesn't let it be a hinderance. In fact it typically becomes a design choice. The last show I designed was lacking a nice wash of a high cooler temp mover mixed in with everything else.
An example of where its a choice: Glass Menagerie Tom's monologues are the present and are presented in nothing but high cooler temp movers to give the rest of the show a more amber/sepia feeling as if we're all looking into the past with him.

 

[Spikesgirl]

Grog - will you marry me? I'm sure my husband won't mind.

Sesriously, thank you for sort of breaking this all down into basic English for me. I know I'd get hard core answers, which is why I asked here. You guys (and gals) deal with things on a daily basis that would never occur to me to ask about. I will turn the posts over to the LD guy. Frankly, I'm not sure why he wants lights - if it's just bragging rights or a need. if he can come back with some reasonable quotes, i don't have a problem. If we can't run them, then I do have a problem. Need to ask some hard edge questions, but want him to do some leg work too (he sort of likes to wait for folks to do his research for him, if you know what I mean).

Thanks again for being patient with a non lighting person!

 

[Grog12]

Grog - will you marry me? I'm sure my husband won't mind.

Eh just tell him he can date my wife! Shouldn't be a problem >:>

 

[icewolf08]

Well, I totally agree with Grog. I do think there is merit to the "Gafftaper Method" but components never replace the real deal. For every point in the "method" there are plenty of counter points as Grog was pointing out. Seachangers and I-Cues are great for many applications, but there are just some things that you can't do unless you have a fully functional moving light. I think that it really depends on what the situation calls for. Ideally, I would like to have static color changers (scrollers or seachangers) AND Gobo rotators AND and a couple scene machines AND I-cues (or right arms) AND moving lights. (Oh wait, I do have that!)

Why? Because each one of those devices is a tool, a different brush. Sometimes a color ghanging rotating gobo is enough, but sometimes you need to be able to have a selection of different gobos that can go in different places and different sizes and have the punch of an arc source fixture.

I have 6 twinspins, 6 I-Cues, 14 scrollers, and 2 scene machines in my inventory, but you only get a limited number of effects from them. Hang a real ML and I can give basically any effect a designer wants. We end up using the MLs more than any of the other toys because of that.

Sure, every situation calls for the right tool. If you just need your side light to be able to change color so that you don't need to hang multiple systems of side light, scrollers or seachangers are a great option. If you just need a simple motion effect a gobo rotator or scene machine type idea is great.

One of the other real up sides to MLs is that it opens up more design options for an LD. What happens when you are sitting in tech and the director changes some blocking that totally messes up your systems? If you have a ML you can actually get light to where you need it, and design with it (add texture, color, motion, etc.) If you only had a source 4 on a RightArm you might be able to get light to the actor, but it might go all over things you don't want it to, and it may not be in a gobo you like, but you need that gobo for the other times that light is used. Sure, only a few years ago you would have hung a new instrument (and you still might), but MLs save you the time and effort of making sure you have the right instrument in inventory and enough circuits to put it where you want it, etc.

I think that moving lights have as much of a place in your inventory as any other component toy. Sure, you need to be able to support them, and you have to be willing to spend money on them, but they will serve you well. I think that the "Gafftaper Method" is a great first step to getting into intelligent gear, but it is only a first step, not a solution. It is a great way to learn about what is out there and how to use it, but eventually you need to play on the higher level.

 

[lieperjp]

I think it really depends on your application. As of right now, my theatre has no special effects at all - not even a color scroller or a gobo spinner. I think that a Right Arm with a color scroller might be a good way to get acclimated to moving/effect lights, and will let me and my theatre gain the experience, especially because we don't have anyone with the experience to use and maintain moving lights. Also, we don't have the budget for a real moving light, either.

 

[Spikesgirl]

Eh just tell him he can date my wife! Shouldn't be a problem >:>

Now, that would be big of me, wouldn't it? (say it fast). It could be just like "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice"


Alex - I also thank you. See, my problem is that I will never use the lights and the only thing I had to do with them back in my old theater was usually transporting them to and fro to be repaired. The only one that was allowed to mess with them (i.e. programming) was the TD/LD. I have no programming experience, but am trying to help out our local theater as the LD feels we could benefit from having something newer. We'll see if he actually gets around to researching the situation before he quits.

 

[SerraAva]

I completely agree with Alex's and Grog's statement above and will add a few more cents.

The biggest thing I find with moving lights is they save time. Hang, run power, run data, program. You will have to add accessories to other lights, hang them and the accessories, plus power and data for the accessories and dimming for the lights. Also, if something changes, you can easily change the programming on the moving lights. If you are using the 'gaff method', you might have to change color, gobos, accessories, focus, etc etc, all depending upon what you are using and need to do. This might require repeating the whole process above in worst case. And then you might still have to re-program something. Takes much more time.

As I and others have stated as well, movers can be used for more then one thing. Depending on the type, you can have more then one gobo wheel for morph effects, rotating gobo wheels for effect, color wheels, CMY, animation wheels, zooms, irises, shutters for strobe effects, and movement. Some movers might have all of these things, cheaper ones pick and choose. The ones I find most important in a theatre setting are the movement, CMY, rotating gobos wheel/s, and iris. The biggest two are probably the movement followed by the iris. CMY is a great tool to have, but you can make due with color wheels, and higher end lights will let you replace the dichoic's in them. The gobo wheel/s are great for texture, and rotating one's just add another dimension to them.

Another thing people seem to be touching on is color temperature. Well, generally when using spot movers, you are trying to highlight something, and the higher color temperature helps with this. When you drop color in it, it will change as well. Wash movers are generally never white, so the difference in color temperature doesn't hurt that much. Almost all movers come with at least a CTO filter in a color wheel. Some come with more then one color wheel, a color wheel and/or CMY and CTO variable filter, or a color wheel and CMY. I find I rarely use the color wheel when I have CMY in the light, unless trying to make a very dark color, like a dark blue or red, or some crazy shade of green which I use even more rarely then darker colors that CMY can do. The other time is a UV type effect. Now if your movers just have a color wheel, and you want to color correct but still use color, put a CTO dichoric in one of the slots on the gobo wheel. If you are lucky, you will have two gobo wheels so you can still add texture with this trick.

 

[gafftaper]

Two things I failed to point out.

The three basic steps to "the method"
1) You should never buy a DMX toy until you have enough conventional lights that you have extras not used in every show.
2) You shouldn't buy a mover until you have a full collection of components.
3) If you pass steps 1 and 2 then go ahead buy a mover if you have the budget and staff to use and maintain it... those lamps are expensive.

Point two:
So Mac 700's are what about $9k? And let's say you get a package rate of about $1700 for a Seachanger. That means for the price of four Mac 700's you can get TWENTY Seachangers. Think of the powerful impact of TWENTY CMY instruments on every design you do. True the four Macs will rock when you have a special need. But you will use those TWENTY CMY fixtures in every show. They will become the heart of your designs.

Thus a key point to the method is the fact that you can spend that money on components that you will ALWAYS use instead of just once in a while.

 

[Spikesgirl]

Went up to the Board last night and discovered we have an Express, not an Impression - I shudder to ask this, but does this make a difference?

And three great points, Gaff, and all of them will be taken to the next step, prior to purchase. I see no reason to buy an instrument just to buy one. We do have plenty of regular lighting instruments and I vividly remember how expensive the lamps were for them. Much will be considered and I have all of you to thank for it.

After a long discussion with the Production Manager and Chris last night, we also have something else to think about. We are preparing to build a new theater (black box). What sort of lighitng system is going in there? Take the old board and buy a new one for the pros. theater or just a smaller one. And what about those lights? Decisions, decisions....

 

[Grog12]

What I said about the Impression holds true for the Express...not impossible but difficult. Especially with th elimitation in Control Channels. I would definetly put the Express in the BB and get a new console if you're looking at movers.