Conventional Fixtures LED Border/Strips

[sdauditorium]

I'm doing some research on current LED products as our district will likely be embarking on a sweeping energy efficiency referendum assuming it is approved within the next two weeks. Part of this includes a half-million dollar LED conversion in the auditorium, including house lights and stage fixtures as well as replacing our Strand racks and architectural control stations. Obviously, they will also be running DMX drops throughout all positions also.

Question: In advance of things happening, I'm curious as to everyone's favorite products specifically as it relates to strip/border wash lights. Primarily, I'm thinking to add low-fill front light for performers on the apron. I did a bit of searching but nothing from recent reviews in the last year. I've been looking at Chauvet Pro and ETC but am not opposed to anything else and have been looking at products with white or amber LEDs.

Here's what I'm currently looking at in terms of fixtures (600 seat proscenium theater with approx. 16-19 ft. trim heights):

34 - 19 deg. Source Four Series 2 Lustr+
20 - 26 deg. Source Four Series 2 Lustr+
18 - 36 deg. ColorSource Spot
18 - 50 deg. ColorSource Spot
15 - Desire D40
16 - ColorSource Cyc
24 - ColorSource PAR
9 - Chauvet Pro Rogue R2 Wash (already have 3)
8 - Chauvet Pro Maverick MK1 Spot
1 - Altman UV 705
3 - Philips-Showline SL-Nitro 510

 

[JohnD]

Did you see the @gafftaper review of the Chauvet strips?
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/chauvet-ovation-b2805fc-led-cyc-lights-review.42530/
Since it seems you are looking for something for a footlight position on the apron have you considered short, spaced sections of one of the strip lights.
>Chroma-Q colorforce 12 with border lens
>ETC Linear 1-2 meter with lens
>Elation and Chauvet similar types
There was a recent post that had a video that sort of showed this technique:

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/chroma-q-color-force-fx-programming.43096/

Oh, in addition to the Nitro 510 strobe, see if you can get a demo of the Elation Protron 3K, I have seen great reviews for it.

 

[sk8rsdad]

It's hard to comment with so little information about the venue and the way it is used.

I'm an ETC fanboy so it's hard to complain about the fixture selections. You may want to consider fewer Source Fours and using the savings to invest in more moving lights for texturing, maybe something with a shutter/framing system. Colour mixing is the big feature of the Lustr+ fixture; there are fewer reasons to double and triple hang a plot. In my venue fresnel adapters would be more useful than PARs. If you are losing your dimmer racks set aside funds for distributed dimming. Conventionals still have their place.

 

[sdauditorium]

Sorry, I didn't want to get too long winded in my OP, but it's a traditional district/community PAC with your standard assortment of school musicals, assemblies, speakers, but also a large number of contracted shows through our community programming series - concerts, plays, lecture series, pageants, etc. Nearly a bit of everything but not really a lot in the way of dance troupes/recitals.

 

[sdauditorium]

It's hard to comment with so little information about the venue and the way it is used.

I'm an ETC fanboy so it's hard to complain about the fixture selections. You may want to consider fewer Source Fours and using the savings to invest in more moving lights for texturing, maybe something with a shutter/framing system. Colour mixing is the big feature of the Lustr+ fixture; there are fewer reasons to double and triple hang a plot. In my venue fresnel adapters would be more useful than PARs. If you are losing your dimmer racks set aside funds for distributed dimming. Conventionals still have their place.

Our theatrical consultant spec'ed the Sensor IQ system which is capable of hybrid - so we will have the ability for conventionals yet, I definitely concur on that point. I didn't want to make my OP too long, but our space is a typical district/community joint venture that hosts both the standard array of school functions - musicals, graduations, assemblies, concerts, etc., along with contracted one-offs - pageants, bands/concerts, plays, lecture series, but not a lot in the way of dance troupes/recitals currently.

 

[SteveB]

Only 2 thoughts and related to the post title is;

1) Do want a "border" light for the cyc/backdrops, or an "open face" style fixture ?. What drives the choice is height of cyc as well as distance downstage of cyc/backdrops to the electrics with units lighting the cyc. If that cyc to electric distance is 3 ft or less, then an open unit, such as the Altman Spectra or ETC ColorSource Cyc or Cyc Adapter, may not give you coverage. In short throw scenarios you can use a Chroma-Q ColorForce II with cyc optics, or ETC Selador Classic Vivid R/Lustr with appropriate lensing.

2) What's the typical trim height of electrics with backlights ?. The Desire D40 is likely about good at 16-18 ft., higher than that and I'd go to the Desire D60. Costs a bit more but they are brighter and you can always lower the intensity.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You are talking foot lights right? "low-fill front light for performers on the apron" Are you sure a low front position with profiles wouldn't be better than strips on the floor? Its a classic problem usually best solved by 4 or more wide angle profile units on the balcony rail - all overlapping a lot - often called "jewel" lighting. Use to be four 6x9s with 750s and usually playing at a level of 3 (or 30 if you prefer). Makes old wrinkled faces look young rather than near death.

Might be a symptom or perceived need because the other foh position are located poorly, too steep to fore stage. Classic problem - belief that one front of house position is all that's needed - which was the case when the stage stopped a couple of feet DS of proscenium but now that nearly every stage extends 10-20' DS of apron, a second and maybe third foh position is required. Makes me wonder if your consultant is more interested in selling gear than solving the design problems.

 

[sdauditorium]

Only 2 thoughts and related to the post title is;

1) Do want a "border" light for the cyc/backdrops, or an "open face" style fixture ?. What drives the choice is height of cyc as well as distance downstage of cyc/backdrops to the electrics with units lighting the cyc. If that cyc to electric distance is 3 ft or less, then an open unit, such as the Altman Spectra or ETC ColorSource Cyc or Cyc Adapter, may not give you coverage. In short throw scenarios you can use a Chroma-Q ColorForce II with cyc optics, or ETC Selador Classic Vivid R/Lustr with appropriate lensing.

2) What's the typical trim height of electrics with backlights ?. The Desire D40 is likely about good at 16-18 ft., higher than that and I'd go to the Desire D60. Costs a bit more but they are brighter and you can always lower the intensity.

Good questions for clarification:
1) Looking for more of an open face style. We're at 4' from cyc to 3rd electric, so we should be solid with the ColorSource Cyc (we'll be doing both a top and bottom row).
2) Typically trim heights of the 1st and 2nd E's are approximately 19-21' with the 3rd E at 24'.

 

[sdauditorium]

You are talking foot lights right? "low-fill front light for performers on the apron" Are you sure a low front position with profiles wouldn't be better than strips on the floor? Its a classic problem usually best solved by 4 or more wide angle profile units on the balcony rail - all overlapping a lot - often called "jewel" lighting. Use to be four 6x9s with 750s and usually playing at a level of 3 (or 30 if you prefer). Makes old wrinkled faces look young rather than near death.

Might be a symptom or perceived need because the other foh position are located poorly, too steep to fore stage. Classic problem - belief that one front of house position is all that's needed - which was the case when the stage stopped a couple of feet DS of proscenium but now that nearly every stage extends 10-20' DS of apron, a second and maybe third foh position is required. Makes me wonder if your consultant is more interested in selling gear than solving the design problems.

Yes, definitely talking footlights...here's a picture to give a better idea of our FOH. We have a single cat which you can probably surmise the location..a bit steep of an angle for my liking but it is what it is. We also have two sets of box booms HL and HR and a house rail bar in the foreground.

 

[sdauditorium]

As an aside, the space is dead hung, hence my focus on picking up more movers to allow for board focus adjustments when risers or other garbage is in my way. Proscenium opening is 43' x 16' high, about 28' from cyc to plaster line and an additional 13 feet from plaster line to center apron edge.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Our theatrical consultant spec'ed the Sensor IQ system which is capable of hybrid - so we will have the ability for conventionals yet, I definitely concur on that point. I didn't want to make my OP too long, but our space is a typical district/community joint venture that hosts both the standard array of school functions - musicals, graduations, assemblies, concerts, etc., along with contracted one-offs - pageants, bands/concerts, plays, lecture series, but not a lot in the way of dance troupes/recitals currently.

No dimmers integral to IQ. You'd have to have separate dimmers - like the ES 750 or Smart Systems distributed dimmers.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Yes, definitely talking footlights...here's a picture to give a better idea of our FOH. We have a single cat which you can probably surmise the location..a bit steep of an angle for my liking but it is what it is. We also have two sets of box booms HL and HR and a house rail bar in the foreground.

I'd still try for a low front wash with profile units than foot lights, whether near bottoms of box booms, "house rail bar", or a new batten on rear wall. More control and less hassle and probably lower cost to fill the faces.

 

[sdauditorium]

No dimmers integral to IQ. You'd have to have separate dimmers - like the ES 750 or Smart Systems distributed dimmers.

I believe they did spec that but will double-check as he mentioned we'd be able to run a hybrid system for any conventional fixtures we'd need to supplement with from our current inventory.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You could convert a lot - more than you'd need - circuits in the CD80 racks - assuming they are CD80 - to relay modules and upgrade the electronics and save a bundle over tearing them out and putting in Sensor IQ, and still have good dimmers available. IMHO a much better value - more fixtures, less electrician. Faster turnover as well. Throw away good dimmers and buying new dimmers - in 2018 - makes no sense.

 

[sdauditorium]

You could convert a lot - more than you'd need - circuits in the CD80 racks - assuming they are CD80 - to relay modules and upgrade the electronics and save a bundle over tearing them out and putting in Sensor IQ, and still have good dimmers available. IMHO a much better value - more fixtures, less electrician. Faster turnover as well. Throw away good dimmers and buying new dimmers - in 2018 - makes no sense.

We had discussed that alternative back in Spring when we first met in the space to go over everything, but I shot an email to find out the current thinking and if that was still a possibility.

 

[gafftaper]

Good questions for clarification:
1) Looking for more of an open face style. We're at 4' from cyc to 3rd electric, so we should be solid with the ColorSource Cyc (we'll be doing both a top and bottom row).
2) Typically trim heights of the 1st and 2nd E's are approximately 19-21' with the 3rd E at 24'.

I have a 22' cyc (boarders are trimmed at 19'). My electrics are about 3 1/2' from the cyc. I can't say enough about how wonderful the Chauvet Ovation Batten lights are. I really love them. They are ridiculously bright. I rarely run them over about 35%... and have them at 3% for most of the current show. SERIOUSLY! You should be able to get the 6' units for about $2k each, run them the full length of the cyc and you'll be set. On the other side if you want a groundrow, the new ETC Colorsource Cyc's top and bottom spaced about 2' apart would be perfect. Being someone who runs a High School PAC there's no way I would want a groundrow as I'm sure the kids would accidentally run into, kick, drop things on, etc... a groundrow. But if top and bottom is a look you want, those new Colorsource Cyc's are the best I've seen.

 

[sdauditorium]

I have a 22' cyc (boarders are trimmed at 19'). My electrics are about 3 1/2' from the cyc. I can't say enough about how wonderful the Chauvet Ovation Batten lights are. I really love them. They are ridiculously bright. I rarely run them over about 35%... and have them at 3% for most of the current show. SERIOUSLY! You should be able to get the 6' units for about $2k each, run them the full length of the cyc and you'll be set. On the other side if you want a groundrow, the new ETC Colorsource Cyc's top and bottom spaced about 2' apart would be perfect. Being someone who runs a High School PAC there's no way I would want a groundrow as I'm sure the kids would accidentally run into, kick, drop things on, etc... a groundrow. But if top and bottom is a look you want, those new Colorsource Cyc's are the best I've seen.

My biggest question would be reliability over the long-term vs. ETC. Sure, Chauvet's Pro line (and Chauvet in general) has come a long way over the last several years, that was the main concern echoed.

 

[derekleffew]

I have a 22' cyc (boarders are trimmed at 19'). ...

How much rent do the boarders pay? Do you charge extra for trimming or is that included?

 

[gafftaper]

My biggest question would be reliability over the long-term vs. ETC. Sure, Chauvet's Pro line (and Chauvet in general) has come a long way over the last several years, that was the main concern echoed.

Yes, ETC is the king of long term reliability and support. There is no risk or gamble when it comes to buying ETC products. They WILL stand behind that product FOREVER and fix ANYTHING! That's important, I have a Strand console that's only 6 years old and very difficult to get tech support for now. You are correct that long term reliability and support of Chauvet Professional products is a question we don't know the answer to because Chauvet is a very different company than they were 10 years ago. They used to be something just a step above American DJ. Today the professional line products are absolutely competitive with the other major manufacturers. I can tell you the build quality on the Ovation Batten LED's is top notch. I had a few issues getting them to work with the rest of my system initially. Chauvet's tech support was great helping me figure out what I needed to do with my setup. But will long term support be there?

Let me tell you the two reasons I felt comfortable buying Chauvet for my cyc lights. First, was the relationship I've built up with @Ford over the years both here on CB and in person at the shows. He's passionate about building great products and making sure every component is done right. From what I know of him, I'm confident that Chauvet didn't cut corners to make a product that looks good but will break down in a short time. Secondly, I've had the opportunity to speak to Berenice Chauvet a few times. She is a passionate business woman, she knows her company, and is proud of the work they have done to build a company with a product line that is truly competitive with the other major players in the industry. I would quite frankly be terrified to challenge her about the long term reliability of her products! She's a wonderful person and absolutely loves what we do here on CB, but she is intense man! I would not want to argue with her and there's no way I would ever want to challenge her on a question of if her company will support products in the future! She's the kind of person that when her name is on a product it means a lot.

Finally a concern you might have is that founders Berenice and Albert Chauvet are getting older and so there is the question of what will happen in the future. We've seen a lot of product lines fall apart over the years when their founders retire or sell the company. Well, @dvsDave and I had a great conversation with Caroline Chauvet two weeks ago at LDI. She's the next generation of the Chauvet family and is currently working in the newly purchased Chamsys product line. I walked away from that conversation thinking, if Caroline is the future, Chauvet is going to be around a long time and be a very good company.

Yes, until Chauvet has 20 year track record of supporting their professional line there is a risk involved in buying their equipment. But when I saw the performance of the Chauvet Batten Cyc lights (seriously get a demo), I compared the price of getting the same performance in another product line, and when I got to know some of the people at Chauvet, I found the any potential risk to be small and the benefits of buying that product huge!

 

[Ben Dickmann]

<whistling quietly to myself>
@gafftaper Next time ask Ford or Albert about my willingness to compromise on anything that goes into the fixtures in Ovation Series...

We take all our Professional Series' fixtures very seriously and kill ourselves trying to balance quality components, aesthetically pleasing design, top notch performance and keep at a reasonable price. Our service team has made huge leaps in the last several years, and you all here have access to Ford and I almost immediately via DM or post. I'd welcome anyone in the community to come visit us in Florida and show you around our complex so you can see first hand our commitment to the market. If you're planning on coming to USITT we are 20min from the convention center...