Safety?

OK. OK. So I’ve seen this done many a time and I have always questioned this practice. Moving a genie lift (outrigger model) fully extended, but the out riggers are loosened just enough that the little green light clicks off, not that the out riggers are removed. Is this practice unsafe or possibly equivalent to moving a genie without the outriggers?

This is an honest question from a student. Please don’t berate me with hate posts.

Thanks.
 
OK. OK. So I’ve seen this done many a time and I have always questioned this practice. Moving a genie lift (outrigger model) fully extended, but the out riggers are loosened just enough that the little green light clicks off, not that the out riggers are removed. Is this practice unsafe or possibly equivalent to moving a genie without the outriggers?

This is an honest question from a student. Please don’t berate me with hate posts.

Thanks.

Single mast Genie lifts are designed to be static (not moving) when extended. Moving an extended lift (even with the outriggers still in their slots) is still unsafe and will get you fired from most venues.

The outriggers are there to prevent rocking and tipping. When they don't have firm contact with the floor, they fail to do their job. Then, when you start parading it around the stage when it's extended, you introduce rocking, which is what the outriggers are designed to prevent. Since the outriggers aren't touching the floor, you will get more rocking. Now, the foot of an outrigger is a disc which is only about 4-5" diameter in most cases. I wouldn't be surprised that if in the right situation, that foot (or the threaded leg) could bend or go right through the stage deck given enough kinetic energy. This would be bad.

To sum it all up -- they aren't designed for it, it says not to do it on the machine, so don't do it. I know that properly relocating a Genie lift is a painful process, but recovering from a fall at height is much more painful (in the unlikely event that the person does recover).
 
I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.

The reason we come to the conclusion that if safety isn't first, it isn't there is because...

If safety isn't first, it isn't there!

The moment ANY other aspect of a given task becomes more important than performing that task safely, that task is NO LONGER SAFE! Safety CANNOT be the number two priority because by its very nature, if safety is not the NUMBER ONE priority, it ceases to be a priority at all. That is the lesson we all keep trying to teach you here.

You seem to think that if only you can explain yourself better, you'll get us to understand your point. We understand your point just fine. What you fail to understand is that each and every one of us who has been in this industry for any significant length of time has been exactly where you are now. We all had our notions of what was safe and what wasn't. Most of us were WRONG! Most learned how wrong they were through education, training and experience. A few, like me, had to learn how wrong we were by having or seeing an accident that could have been avoided had proper safety procedures been learned, understood, and followed.

Does that mean a discussion of whether certain safety rules are unnecessary, or even downright dangerous is a bad thing? No, it doesn't! Just don't delude yourself into thinking that you will ever convince the industry veterans on this site that safety should ever hold any position other than number one. Number one is the only place safety can be if it is to exist at all.
 
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as i see all of your posts you are saying the same thing that i want to cut out all safety from my theater that is not the case i don't have any disputes with the safety codes of our school its a discussion thread not an actual example everything i have stated about my school or as examples are hypothetical we do not wear hard hats in our venue nor have we ever been required to. hell gloves are optional on our fly rail which i believe is a stupid idea. also in a high school setting the only people with access to heights or any kind of electrical equipment next to outlets at ground level are people who have keys and training. this is a public school so safety is a huge deal. I am tired of people ASSUMING i mean to take safety out of the picture, but when i see several threads about how (not on this forum) you should always wear Rubber soles when plugging in any standard electric outlet it tells me that my generation obviously shouldn't be working with anything remotely hazardous in anyway because they can't or don't have the common sense to not stick a fork in a socket.


I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.

It's not that people expect high schoolers are stupid, but that they cocky, overconfident, and though well-intended, can cause a great deal of harm to themselves or others inadvertently. Wiring up new connectors and accidentally putting the hot wire on the ground terminal now sends electrical current through the body of your light fixture (and subsequently anything metal that's connected to that fixture -- say, an entire electric). It's a simple mistake, but has potentially fatal consequences.

When you start saying, "Ehh, it's okay to skimp on safety measures," at a young age, there's a reason you lose the respect of almost everyone here at CB. Many of us have worked with those types of people before -- it's scary. If you had wanted to make a thread discussing where the line should be drawn on standard safety measures, there would've been a much better way than saying, "I'm all for safety but when it starts becoming such a huge focus don't your shows all suffer?"

Because it starts with person who cuts a corner to not put safety cables on a few lights under mild pressure might be the person who under extreme pressure allows the one-man Genie lift to be used without outriggers or with the operator leaning out of the bucket because that fixture is just a little too far away for him to comfortably reach, but you don't have time to properly move the Genie to a better location.

As a professional courtesy, I suggest you watch how you handle situations in the future. You've managed already to discredit yourself to a large number of people in this community, and your attitude is the specific attitude I watch for in people I'm working with. You're the type of person I make certain never makes it to crew management and likely only gets hired out of desperation and ends up pushing road cases when other people are performing skilled labor. Where I work, not only would we not trust you, but the last thing we would ever want is for you to spread your attitude amongst the crew. I don't care how well-intentioned or misunderstood or out of context your statements are, the moment a student is in a lift and says to themselves, "______ said it's okay to cut corners on safety every once in a while for the sake of the show so I think I can lean over this guard rail a little bit further," you've just taken an otherwise intelligent person and in a best case scenario broken at least half a dozen bones in their body.

Because that's what people will do. High schoolers especially. No matter how well they've been trained, they're always under a constant pressure to perform and don't necessarily realize they have the right to say, "I don't feel safe doing this, I'd prefer to work on something else." And I know there are people that want to show off their "mad skillzz" by getting the job done really quickly because they decided to pull the outriggers on the one-man lift. There's that confidence that they'll be just as safe and will show their employers how awesome they are at getting tasks done quickly.

I've seen your attitude in students before. Those students never get hired for events and only ever see the arts center if they're willing to some basic work in the scene shop for free. We won't hire them, we don't trust them, and we get nervous when they associate with the crew members we do trust.
 
What you fail to understand is that each and every one of us who has been in this industry for any significant length of time has been exactly where you are now. We all had our notions of what was safe and what wasn't. Most of us were WRONG! Most learned how wrong they were through education, training and experience. A few, like me, had to learn how wrong we were by having or seeing an accident that could have been avoided had proper safety procedures been learned, understood, and followed.
Hey, I've been in this industry for less than six months. But what I've seen has proven to me that safety is always the first priority.

Define 'safety measures' to mean any procedure or policy which can prevent an accident. By this definition, safety measures are always to be given the top priority, because if they are not, you might not have a show.

Any safety measure which actually protects people (and equipment) MUST always be followed. Any safety measure that you were told to follow or which a piece of equipment tells you to follow will almost certainly actually protect people, and MUST always be followed.

The ONLY case where you should disregard a safety procedure is where you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it is superfluous. For example, it's safe procedure to unplug an instrument before replacing a lamp. It's NOT OKAY to ignore this, even if you know that the board is setting this channel to zero, because you could be mistaken, the dimmer could be fried, etc. For another example, it's safe procedure to call heads (or 'coming in' or something like that) before dropping anything from height. It is NOT OKAY to ignore this, even if you think that no one else is in the room, because someone else may have walked in. (And what are you doing at height alone anyway?)

I'm trying to think of an example to the opposite, where a generally accepted safety policy may be unnecessary because you have the knowledge that it is safe, but I can't even think of one. You should never trust that anything is working, especially when you're working to recover from something not working.

Ah, I have one.

It's generally accepted safety practice to hang any lighting instrument from a safety. If the instrument is on a vertical pipe, however, safetying it to the pipe itself is rather pointless. Typically what we do is have a horizontal supporting pipe about 9' up and safety one instrument to the horizontal pipe, and safety every other instrument to the instrument above it as well as the safety above it, so worst case we have a daisy chain of safeties supporting the lowest instrument. In this case, hanging an instrument off the vertical pipe is worthless (it's on the stage, not in the air, so even safetied, the instrument can fall) so typical safety does very little for you. That doesn't mean it's a waste of time and you should ignore it, but that you need to find another way of supporting the instrument.
 
On the genie lift topic, personally I believe that the outrigger-style single man lifts are totally inappropriate for use in a theater when hanging or focusing instruments because the need to move the lift is so frequent it leads the users to operate it in an unsafe manor or impedes the work and slows everything down to a crawl.

There are a number of inexpensive and light weight aerial work platforms available from Genie and other manufacturers which can be safely repositioned while in the air. The cost of renting or purchasing them is not that much greater than of the outrigger style lifts, and they are much more versatile.
 
On the genie lift topic, personally I believe that the outrigger-style single man lifts are totally inappropriate for use in a theater when hanging or focusing instruments because the need to move the lift is so frequent it leads the users to operate it in an unsafe manor or impedes the work and slows everything down to a crawl.

There are a number of inexpensive and light weight aerial work platforms available from Genie and other manufacturers which can be safely repositioned while in the air. The cost of renting or purchasing them is not that much greater than of the outrigger style lifts, and they are much more versatile.

This here is a perfect example of how preconceived notions of what is and is not safe can get you in trouble. Yes, aerial work platforms are versatile machines, but they are neither appropriate nor safe to use for all applications. My venue has several lighting positions that cannot be accessed using a scissor lift. One such position is in a location where the grade is too steep to use a scissor lift. In this location my outrigger style Genie man lift is the best work platform for the job as I can use the outriggers to level out the lift. Another two lighting positions can only be accessed with a boom lift as there is simply no way to safely get our scissor lift or our man lift to the area below these two positions. I have another two lighting positions where it's impossible to use any type of lift, safely or otherwise, as there is simply no way to get any type of lift in there. In these two locations, the appropriate work positioning tool is an extension ladder leaning against a wall.

So be careful when evaluating how safe a given piece of equipment is. While yes, in most instances an aerial work platform is probably a better choice than a man lift or a ladder, there are some instances where using one is not even an option. Don't let your preconceptions about safety prevent you from using the proper tool for a given task.
 
as i see all of your posts you are saying the same thing that i want to cut out all safety from my theater that is not the case i don't have any disputes with the safety codes of our school its a discussion thread not an actual example everything i have stated about my school or as examples are hypothetical we do not wear hard hats in our venue nor have we ever been required to. hell gloves are optional on our fly rail which i believe is a stupid idea. also in a high school setting the only people with access to heights or any kind of electrical equipment next to outlets at ground level are people who have keys and training. this is a public school so safety is a huge deal. I am tired of people ASSUMING i mean to take safety out of the picture, but when i see several threads about how (not on this forum) you should always wear Rubber soles when plugging in any standard electric outlet it tells me that my generation obviously shouldn't be working with anything remotely hazardous in anyway because they can't or don't have the common sense to not stick a fork in a socket.


I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.

Holy crap! What did you just try to say? I can barely read it with the lack of capitalization and puncuation. It looks like one big, long sentence. I don't think anyone can understand what you are trying to say when it is written like that. Spend a little more time in English class, please.

Anyway, from what I can get out if it, it seems that your tune has changed a bit from your OP. That is a good thing, as it indicates that you have been reading everything that has been said. Please keep reading and try to soak in as much of what is being said as possible. Remember, you are not only responsible for your own safety, but the safety of anyone you are working around.
 
I think the OP is talking about some of the saftey rules, that while may make sense on paper, aren't very realistic. Hard hats? haven't heard of it, but I doubt many theatres do that. The harness and clip onto catwalks? supposedly we're supposed to do that at my theatre, but there are guardrails all the way across. You'd have to try pretty hard to fall. Also, I don't believe we ever actually got the harnesses we were supposed to wear, and one of the lines we were supposed to clip onto was about 6 inches directly below the pipe to hang lights on. So unless we wanted to top hang all our lights on the catwalk... the people before me took it down as soon as they saw the problem. Also things like not moving a genie lift when someone's up in it. Sorry, I'm not going to come down so it can be moved 5 feet over to get to the next light.
I'm all for saftey, but these are things that go a little over the top in my opinion.

Hey. I've seen some of how your genie is used in your theatre, and honestly, it's really unnerving.
I would rather go down and back up, even if it takes a little more time. I have been pushed at height, but didn't like it very much at all. On one of two occasions while i was being pushed, the outriggers got caught on a bump in the floor, and lurched the lift to a halt, causing me to sway much more than what was comfortable. And the extra time that it takes is not much at all; around 30 seconds each time. Even if you add that up for, say, 40 different positions of the lift, thats only 20 minutes extra. So you have the rest of the crew go on break, work for 20 minutes, and be done right as the pizza arrives.
 
And the extra time that it takes is not much at all; around 30 seconds each time. Even if you add that up for, say, 40 different positions of the lift, thats only 20 minutes extra. So you have the rest of the crew go on break, work for 20 minutes, and be done right as the pizza arrives.

Actually, I'd question that timing. Let's say your focusing down an electric, with 40 conventional units being focused. For each change of position, it might take about 30 seconds total travel time for the genie, but once you add up loosening the outriggers, moving the genie to the right location (finding the perfect balance between "not close enough" and "blocking the beam" can be difficult), and tightening the outriggers back down, I'd call that probably between a minute and a half, which would add to a full hour. And that's not even counting those situations where you get up there and find you're just out of reach of the unit, and have to come all the way back down to move it 2 inches. If you had a show that had 6 electrics with 40 units per electric (probably not very common these days), that's an additional 6 hours coming from just moving the genie around. Also remember that Union regs may not allow you to send half your crew off on break while the other half stays and works on the genie.
 
Actually, I'd question that timing. Let's say your focusing down an electric, with 40 conventional units being focused. For each change of position, it might take about 30 seconds total travel time for the genie, but once you add up loosening the outriggers, moving the genie to the right location (finding the perfect balance between "not close enough" and "blocking the beam" can be difficult), and tightening the outriggers back down, I'd call that probably between a minute and a half, which would add to a full hour. And that's not even counting those situations where you get up there and find you're just out of reach of the unit, and have to come all the way back down to move it 2 inches. If you had a show that had 6 electrics with 40 units per electric (probably not very common these days), that's an additional 6 hours coming from just moving the genie around. Also remember that Union regs may not allow you to send half your crew off on break while the other half stays and works on the genie.

Or you could use a step ladder as it doesn't take a minute to move, or use a lift with wheels because you are on stage, not trying to reach that one light on the FOH catwalk.
 
Or you could use a step ladder as it doesn't take a minute to move, or use a lift with wheels because you are on stage, not trying to reach that one light on the FOH catwalk.

Many theatres can't afford scissor lifts. Fortunately both venues I work at own scissors. The one is connected to a school district with a beefy building and grounds department so we have access to multiple scissor lifts, any number of ladders, and so on.

For the theatres that can't afford to have everything, the one-man is the do-all that gives them the most bang for the buck. Even with our scissors, we have situations we need a one-man for so we are currently in the market for one despite having those other lifts at our availability. The advantage of the scissor is that for regular use in a theatre application, the only ways you can really get hurt is to jump over the railing or drive it off of the apron.
 
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This thread is full of dead people.:evil:

If the OP is anywhere near serious, then it's the King of All Kings idiot statement in the History of Everything.

Sorry for the harsh language kids, but it's the only way to communicate things sometimes.
 
Here's a similar question, which I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, please forgive me.

At what point are you out of the "don't be stupid"/"just be careful" category and into the "Wear your harness"/"You're about to die" category? Standing on a chair? 6' step ladder? 25' A-frame? Railed catwalk? Hanging by your toes from the grid? All of these situations can be potentially fatal, even falling off of a chair. However, I don't see many people strapped in when they're just painting the top of a column that they couldn't quite reach from the ground.
 
Here's a similar question, which I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, please forgive me.

At what point are you out of the "don't be stupid"/"just be careful" category and into the "Wear your harness"/"You're about to die" category? Standing on a chair? 6' step ladder? 25' A-frame? Railed catwalk? Hanging by your toes from the grid? All of these situations can be potentially fatal, even falling off of a chair. However, I don't see many people strapped in when they're just painting the top of a column that they couldn't quite reach from the ground.

Common sense. No OSHA regulations can make up for it. Where regulations come into play is when people enter situations where they aren't prepared with the instincts to work safely. If you're going to fall a couple feet off a chair, no harness is going to make you any safer, and though it's likely the fall will injure you, it would still be considered a freak accident if it proved fatal.

A harness on a 6' ladder is impractical. In most situations there wouldn't be an appropriate place to secure the harness to and to wear a harness anyways at that height would probably make the situation more dangerous and likely to cause the ladder to fall over.

Even on a 25' ladder a harness will more likely get in the way and contribute to it falling over. Just because you've worn a harness doesn't mean your any safer. As someone mentioned earlier, even if the harness initially saves you from the fall you might be even more endangered if you don't have an extraction plan in place. So let's say your fall was caused because your harness caused you to lose your balance while moving around at the top of the A-frame. If you don't have an extraction plan in place that'll get you down in time, you will likely pass out while hanging in the harness.

You wouldn't even be able to use a harness while focusing lights from a ladder anyways because you'd have to connect it to your electrics which is incredibly dangerous to do.

Most people have a point where they think something is dangerous. The first time they are in a lift they realize that's it a little bit freaky. That should be the indicator to them to fully appreciate what they're doing and (excuse the pun) the gravity of the situation they're in. The majority of accidents happen when people become too comfortable with what they're doing and their common sense dulls away.

I have heard, though it may be inaccurate, that any height above 6' requires a harness or OSHA appropriate handrails.

This site:OSHA Stairway and Handrail Regulations seems to cover the topic of ladders, handrails and stairwell railings in depth.

I think you've become confused with the statistic that most falls above 6' are fatal. Remember the last time you were on an 8' ladder and someone suggested you wear a harness?
 
I have to disagree with the concept of common sense in the working environment. My "common" experiences are not necessarily the same as someone else's "common" experiences. If there was "common sense", there wouldn't be any need for training.

Regarding Heights and fall protection and OSHA. There is one standard for General Industry and a different standard for Construction. (The following are excerpts from the regs):

40 CFR 1910 (General Industry)
1910.23(c)

"Protection of open-sided floors, platforms, and runways."

1910.23(c)(1)

Every open-sided floor or platform 4 feet or more above adjacent floor or ground level shall be guarded by a standard railing (or the equivalent as specified in paragraph (e)(3) of this section) on all open sides except where there is entrance to a ramp, stairway, or fixed ladder. The railing shall be provided with a toeboard wherever, beneath the open sides,...



40 CF 1926 (Construction)
1926.501(b)(1)

"Unprotected sides and edges." Each employee on a walking/working surface (horizontal and vertical surface) with an unprotected side or edge which is 6 feet (1.8 m) or more above a lower level shall be protected from falling by the use of guardrail systems, safety net systems, or personal fall arrest systems....


Neither standard is applicable to ladder use.


Joe
 
I have to disagree with the concept of common sense in the working environment.

Or at least exclusively common sense? I would definitely hope that there is some sort of common sense involved. ;)
 

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