Side debate about low budget consoles

[BillConnerFASTC]

While some folks are quite adept at solving their problems, I still limit my specs to those manufacturers and vendors who I'm pretty sure offer great support. That leaves ETC almost alone at top of the manufacturers list but Pathway has shown they have good tech support as well. Others may, but I just am not convinced yet.

Smartfade M with a laptop is pretty interesting - just not the body of user and vendor support as there is for eos line.

 

[TJCornish]

I own and have a lot of time on a SmartFade ML. It's great within its limitations. I've rented the Cognito and have used an Element. I prefer the SmartFade ML to both of these for my busking purposes, though I can see that in a mostly conventional show, the Element might be preferable.

Over on the audio side of things, it used to be that the mixer you wanted cost between $15,000 - $20,000. In the last 2-3 years, that price has now dropped to between $2500-$5000 with the Allen&Heath QU series, Behringer X32 series, and on the higher end, the A&H GLD series. For some reason, this price drop has yet to hit on the lighting side of things - the next step up from the above mentioned lighting consoles quickly goes to about $7000, and from there even more quickly to $15,000, then $50,000.

I'm all for companies staying profitable and I understand that there are development and support costs that need to be amortized, but I'm not convinced that a Cobalt or a MA really needs to be the price they currently go for.

While at the local shop yesterday I bent the ear of their console expert whining about this exact issue, and he told me to check into the Martin M-Touch/M-PC. The wing is ~$500 and doesn't use physical faders. Instead, it uses touch surfaces with LED ladders. This has the significant advantage that the parameters can follow page changes without the fader being disconnected. I'm very excited to try this, as it seems like a good solution for me - much more capability than the lower-end hardware consoles, but a price that reflects the actual cost of development, rather than the inflated prices of the mid-tier consoles and wings.

 

[Calc]

I have two Smartfades here, a 1248 and a 2496.

The 1248 was originally to go with the Congo Jr. in the theatre. It has a mode to pass DMX through, or playback recorded presets, so they installed it in-line with the DMX out with the idea that it could be used as either a backup, or a quick solution to bring up lights without starting up the Jr. It worked great in that purpose, but those pushing the "Now I can put less people with less training in the booth!" lead to it being removed when they realized how well that worked. Now it floats around, and I use it for our arena (~15 channels of LED house lights and a SmartBar). I've re-patched the channels to fit the non-sequential way they retrofitted the LEDs, and it works well.

The 2496 runs in our recital hall. The room only has 48 dimmers (including house lights) so it's technically overkill. But it's easy enough that I can let the music department turn on lights themselves without worrying that they're going to break or erase anything.


SmartFade has a target market. That market doesn't want the standard ETC key layout. They don't need multiple universes. The problem comes up when all people see is the price tag and brand, and decide that this is ETC's budget console. It's not.
I've seen the same thing with the Cognito in person. One of the local dealers got a demo unit in when they first came out, and was trying to convince me that it would go well in our theatre (replacing our Congo Jr.). I knew enough to tell him that it wouldn't. But there's a small concert venue across town that has one and loves it. Again, you need to pay attention to the target market for a console when shopping around.

@BillConnerASTC: You can hook it to a laptop to get a little fancier for programming, but I've always seen that more as a tool for install/programming rather than during a show. It still seems to me that if you need/want a screen, you're probably better off looking at another board. I've never seen it with the ML though, so I could be way off base there.

 

[TJCornish]

@BillConnerASTC: You can hook it to a laptop to get a little fancier for programming, but I've always seen that more as a tool for install/programming rather than during a show. It still seems to me that if you need/want a screen, you're probably better off looking at another board. I've never seen it with the ML though, so I could be way off base there.

The laptop screen on the SmartFade is pretty essential for memory editing and managing. If you only have a few memories stored, you don't need it. If you have multiple pages in use or if you need to edit a memory, you quickly find the limitations of trying to do that only on the surface.

 

[theatricalmatt]

@TJCornish -- The price of lighting consoles might remain pretty high; the real cost chases these days are with LEDs and moving lights.

 

[SteveB]

And I don't think the actual question was if the Smartfade is a value based and/or effective console. It is what is is, it's not exactly a recent design after all.

The question seemed to be is Nomad and the attending accessories, too expensive as compared to others. I feel that it pricey for what it seems to offer at the basic level - 256 addresses on a dongle, plus the price of a Gadget. That IS more then other manufacturers options for PC based control, but a question - how well do the AVO, Grand MA, Chamsys, or Martin options interface as a backup, supplemental surface, etc... as does Nomad ?, which does a good job at taking the entire OS of an Eos Ti down to a basic hardware level. That's the advantage I see and why it costs more.

 

[TJCornish]

@TJCornish -- The price of lighting consoles might remain pretty high; the real cost chases these days are with LEDs and moving lights.

They will until they don't. With all the cheaper movers, there exists a real need to drive them - this is exactly my issue right now, and eventually vendors will rise to meet the demand; either by second-tier folks coming up market, or first-tier folks moving downmarket.

It seems that Martin is addressing this with the M-Touch wing - the fact that it is $500 and not $5000 like the rest while still being fully functional is a step in the right direction.

Other players like Strand with the Neo are making an attempt (at least getting the $15,000 level console down to the $8000 level), however support and organizational concerns make gambling on something like that harder to swallow.

 

[zwolf59661]

I've done work in a community theatre space that uses a SmartFade 2496. For what they use it for, it's a nice little board. Their rig is a mix of conventional and LED, so the individual channel faders are nice. It's relatively easy to program. They have an older desktop PC next to it that I like to run SmartSoft (the companion PC app) on, which I also use for offline programming as needed. And because it's community theatre, the tech crew is all volunteer, with varying levels of experience.
As it's been mentioned before, the SmartFade line is perfect for certain situations. It's the right tool for the right job.

 

[gafftaper]

It is hard to discuss Smart Fade without talking about Cognito.
Cognito was purpose built for schools and churches as a small, yet powerful, control solution.
http://www.pathwayconnect.com/content/view/214/29/

True Cognito is a fantastic choice for schools and churches. If I was buying a low budget console for a facility I work in, Cognito would immediately be on the short list and likely end up first choice. Heck, there are some situations where I would choose a Cognito over a Element or Ion, it's a great board! But for a low budget, high volunteer situation, Cognito requires more knowledge and more training, to operate than a Smartfade. Cognito also costs around $1k-$2k more than a Smartfade (depending on which versions you are comparing). The right tool for the job.

 

[RickR]

Martin has hit a key price point that I think ETC hasn't kept up with. Lots of places choke at $1000 for a board. My local dealer sold Lep 612/624s almost daily for years to little churches and clubs. SmartFade hit that hard, but purely conventional rigs are disappearing. A SFML is $3000. If you're spending $Ks on fixtures it makes sense but not for a hybrid rig with a few china LEDs. Nomad/Gadget at $1500 is better but not low enough.

Nobody can beat the ChamSys, one universe and dongle for $100. And an Enttec Pro dongle is only $170. But wings get expensive fast!

 

[soundlight]

I will add that if PC options are in consideration, Martin's got everyone else wiped clean with the M-Touch which is a genuine, physical user interface with playbacks and encoders and a few touch-keys for under 500 bucks. And it's got a universe of DMX out. I've been recommending that thing left and right recently to people who want a full featured mover-focused control system but don't have the budget for a real desk, or even a real wing.

 

[AsherSB]

My original post back in the 4WRD thread addressed the absence of a traditional ETC board at a low price, and even though I personally have my reservations about the smartfade, I see how it can be useful in certain limited applications. The smartfade, however, breaks completely from traditional ETC design and is far from competitive in terms of price point when you look at its feature set. On top of that the smartfade continues to age, and though it has done so well, it still feels distinctly last generation. Something like the M2GO or Cognito2 would meet every requirement I could possibly have, but I want the ETC layout and UI because almost every high school and collage in town uses an ion, element, or express, and I want everyone who is trained at our theater to have skills that can transfer. More then anything I want to be able to meet the industry standard that ETC sets, I just can't afford to. With the next generation of ETC small venue consoles that are likely coming in the next few years I would love to see them match the design of higher end ETC consoles and have the ability to grow with the theater and budget.

Essentially ENTTEC's PC wings with built in computing and from ETC.

 

[gafftaper]

My original post back in the 4WRD thread addressed the absence of a traditional ETC board at a low price

I believe if you adjust for inflation, the ETC Element costs about the same as a similarly equipped Express cost back in the day when they were king of the market. I think I paid a little over $4,000 for my Express nearly 20 years ago. Element may cost a little more, but not much and it's definitely a better value when you consider how much more horsepower is onboard. I believe Strand's Basic Palette II and Pathway Cognito are both around $3000-$4,000 depending on the options you select... which is definitely cheaper than an Express was back in the day.

I'm afraid this is really a matter of "you have to pay to play". There is an entry level price that you just have to pay in order to buy a proper light console.

 

[AsherSB]

I believe if you adjust for inflation, the ETC Element costs about the same as a similarly equipped Express cost back in the day when they were king of the market. I think I paid a little over $4,000 for my Express nearly 20 years ago. Element may cost a little more, but not much and it's definitely a better value when you consider how much more horsepower is onboard. I believe Strand's Basic Palette II and Pathway Cognito are both around $3000-$4,000 depending on the options you select... which is definitely cheaper than an Express was back in the day.

I'm afraid this is really a matter of "you have to pay to play". There is an entry level price that you just have to pay in order to buy a proper light console.

I know, but as @TJCornish said, eventually the cost will drop in the same way we saw with sound. I can dream, right?

 

[TJCornish]

I know, but as @TJCornish said, eventually the cost will drop in the same way we saw with sound. I can dream, right?

It's going to happen. Strand came out with the ML250 which is ~$2000, but seems to be suffering from the catch-22 of folks not adopting it due to software issues, and Strand losing interest due to customers not adopting the product.

The PC folks are getting it right - again mentioning Martin M-PC and M-Touch. My rig is moving increasingly towards movers, and in the mid-tier land, software control is arguably better and certainly cheaper than mid-priced consoles.

Niches in the industry tend to have a lot of inertia, and I expect the desire for the ETC way of working to continue for a long time where it is currently king. More flexible niches can take advantage of new ways of working more quickly, and it is here that price competition will first make inroads.

 

[AsherSB]

The PC folks are getting it right - again mentioning Martin M-PC and M-Touch. My rig is moving increasingly towards movers, and in the mid-tier land, software control is arguably better and certainly cheaper than mid-priced consoles.

I've looked at the M-Touch, but having never used a Martin controller before, I worry about using it in a strictly theatrical setting. Is it a weapon of choice for a theatrical venue, or do you think it's better aimed at those looking to run concerts and corporate stuff?

 

[JimOC_1]

Over last two months there seems to be a dramatic increase in big name boards showing up on ebay. Are people going with computers, or are rental houses clearing out old closets before the next generation of $1K - $3K boards are released?

 

[MikeJ]

I'm skeptical that we will see the same drop in price as we did with audio consoles. The market for audio consoles, is much, much larger. Bar bands and van and trailer tours will snatch up and M32, because having a monitor desk, makes their show immeasurably easier and more consistent, day to day, but that same band will probably never be in the market for a lighting controller, unless they really hit it big, and in that case they be able to afford a real LD and high end equipment. That M32 will also be replaced with something much better.

The other thing is, some companies HAVE introduced "low cost" alternatives for users who don't need all the features. MA introduced the Dot2 a year ago, and at $12k ish, its less than half the price of a light. The price of a onPC Command wing has also dropped just this month by $1000. For MA, those prices are cheap.
Hog has teamed up with Elation, and offers several small formate consoles/wings, but still in the $5-8k Range

While these prices seem high, in general, selling fewer high-end products, yields more profit and better customer service, then selling 100 times the units at a fraction of the price. When you have thousands of inexperienced users calling support because they don't know where to plug in the DMX cables, profit goes down fast.

Just like in production, I would rather do 10 big cooperate events or arena shows, than do 100 bar bands. The bigger shows will be easier, the clients more professional, and the price tag higher.

It looks like MA dropped the price of the entire line by a little bit, is it a trend? I don't know.

 

[TJCornish]

I'm skeptical that we will see the same drop in price as we did with audio consoles. The market for audio consoles, is much, much larger. Bar bands and van and trailer tours will snatch up and M32, because having a monitor desk, makes their show immeasurably easier and more consistent, day to day, but that same band will probably never be in the market for a lighting controller, unless they really hit it big, and in that case they be able to afford a real LD and high end equipment. That M32 will also be replaced with something much better.

There are lots of bands that tour with lighting rigs. Some are DJ-level, and the Elation ShowDesigner series has a following in those circles. I would argue that having a lighting controller programmed for your show can be even more critical than an audio console with your settings - it's a lot faster to set some levels on a mixer than recreate all of your lighting looks assuming you're trying to do something more specific than generic blinking of stuff.

The other thing is, some companies HAVE introduced "low cost" alternatives for users who don't need all the features. MA introduced the Dot2 a year ago, and at $12k ish, its less than half the price of a light. The price of a onPC Command wing has also dropped just this month by $1000. For MA, those prices are cheap.
Hog has teamed up with Elation, and offers several small formate consoles/wings, but still in the $5-8k Range

There are still audio consoles that are in the high 5-figure range; what has changed is that a "low-end" console like the A&H GLD series can do a 48x24 show for $5K with pretty much any bell or whistle you want. The big-boy desks are still there for those that want/need them, but the lower-end desks are absolutely functional, and a joy to use.

I haven't found a comparable <$5K lighting desk that doesn't require a PC and doesn't have UI limitations - small screen, too few faders, etc. This is what I'm expecting to change.

While these prices seem high, in general, selling fewer high-end products, yields more profit and better customer service, then selling 100 times the units at a fraction of the price. When you have thousands of inexperienced users calling support because they don't know where to plug in the DMX cables, profit goes down fast.

Just like in production, I would rather do 10 big cooperate events or arena shows, than do 100 bar bands. The bigger shows will be easier, the clients more professional, and the price tag higher.

It looks like MA dropped the price of the entire line by a little bit, is it a trend? I don't know.

You have a point about the greater tech support demands of products that are targeted for a larger pool of users, however much of the rest of what you state isn't generally true. Music Group - AKA Behringer - bought Midas and Turbosound, not the other way around. Harman Group (JBL, Harmon Kardon, lots of consumer brands) bought Martin. JBL's JRX, Eon, PRX, and SRX series products float the company so they can make Vertec and VTX. Volkswagen owns Porshce, not the other way around, etc. As you mentioned, High End is now selling some products through Elation.

When you consider the cost of R&D, small client bases are a real problem, and lots of boutique companies struggle to get by and end up being gobbled up by the mass market players.

 

[robartsd]

I think that @MikeJ is right, ETC can't afford to compete in the low end market and keep their great customer service reputation. If they wanted to design for the market where a SmartFade is too pricey, they'd likely have to have the board not be branded ETC and not come with the free tech support that ETC products enjoy.