Using ETC Selador to replace T3 and R40 Cyc units

[joeboo46]

After searching the internet for a few days I am finally going to just ask the question here it is usually easier. I work at a regional theatre during the summer in between jobs and was approached with a question about doing a complete replacement of lighting equipment to save energy. The inventory currently consists of 6x9 and 6x12 Times Square units, Altman 360Q's, Century Radials, Altman 6" Fresnels, a variety of PAR 64s, R40 Strips, some off brand type T3 units, and a handful of S4 ellipsoidals.

The replacement for the for the ellipsoidal stock is a pretty easy answer they want to go with Source Four i agree it is their best option and something they are already familiar with. Also going to replace the PAR and Fresnel stock with Source Four Pars. Yes, I know the use and quality of light produced by a Fresnel greatly differs from a PAR but why we are talking about doing all S4 PARs is a story for another day.

So the big question is, what to replace the cyc units with. The consensus is go LED. The theatre typically produces straight plays. I am looking for a unit that can produce as close to true white light as possible, along with all the pastels and saturated colors that come along with making a cyc anything you need it to be. Color blasts were mentioned but I feel they don't offer the color range the designs at this theatre require being RGB units. I began looking into the ETC Selador series which I have no experience with. I am not really sure what model to look at. I think these offer more what we are looking for with the 7 color technology. Anyone out there have these in a similar setting? What model should I look into? Lustr, Paletta? Is there something better out there I don't know about?

The CYC info is as follows:
24'x28'
Approximate throw distance to light the cyc is 3' at 25' high

 

[jhdesynz]

First off, the S4 Pars are a good idea if they are trying to consolidate down to 1 to 2 lamps needed for stock. You will adapt to it easily. Trust me, I did.

Second, The Selador's are an excellent idea. I would recommend the Vivid R's 11in with the fixtures placed on 3ft centers. You install the 10x60 holo-lens and place a sheet of R104 Cyc silk and the coverage you will get is amazing. If you have alot of budget, decrease the spacing to 1.5ft centers.

The question that needs to be asked though is what kind of console do you have? If you have an ETC EOS/Ion/Element, the Selador's are in the color picker. At the very least, you will need a console with encoders to be able to really use the fixtures without it being a pain. However, as long as your proficient at setting up submasters and groups, an ETC Express series or a Strand (ahk, sorry hairball) console would be fine.

PM me if you would like to set up a demo. I'd be happy to talk further.

 

[DanAyers]

Selador's are great fixtures. The advantage to them is the color mixing just can't be beat. Unfortunately they are much more powerful as a par-replacement than as a cyc light.

You will definitely want to use the R104 with the correct lens for a cyc light, they'll also go a little higher and a little further away than you're used to, but they look great.

Do a side-by-side comparison with Altman's LED Cyc lights, they don't have the color as well as the Selador's but they do have other fine qualities.

When you evaluate LED's it's important to have a demo in the circumstances in which you're actually going to use them. i.e. don't aim them at a white wall. Hang them from a baton.

Oh, do a YouTube Search, ETC has posted several good demo videos on the Selador series.

Dan Ayers

 

[joeboo46]

First off thanks for the quick input. To answer the question of console they currently have an Express 125 that should have actually been updated when the dimming system was done a few years ago, I should have mentioned a console is also part of the replacement plan I am recommending an Ion with a fader wing. I have programmed this console on a few occasions and really think it is a great console for their needs (i.e. User friendly, very intuitive and easy to learn plus pretty powerful) I'm an MA guy myself but that isn't going to happen. Going higher and further away with the led units, unfortunately, is not an option. The house, as of right now is mostly dead hung with a few sticks of truss with motors downstage for electrics, but they are working their way upstage one step and one 1/2 ton at a time. So the dimensions I gave earlier are pretty much the only option, not to mention the two columns directly down stage of the CYC which really limit batten placement for the electric. Is there a lens option that will allow me to do this in the current situation or do I need to consider trying to figure out how to move the electric downstage?

 

[kicknargel]

I'm working on the same project for a dinner theatre, also looking at the Selador Vivid-R and the Altman Spectra Cyc. I think the benefit of the latter is that it has an asymetric throw pattern designed to light a cyc from an angle. It surprises me that ETC hasn't incorporated this. When using Seladors, do have a problem getting light all the way down the cyc, and/or being way hotter at the top?

Altman says you can put the spectra cycs on 8' centers, which would make them cheaper, but I wonder if it's really true.

I know, I know, I need to demo them. Problem is we're moving into a new space and I won't really have time to demo in the space before the first show opens.

 

[gafftaper]

Seleador is AWESOME! My unhealthy love for them is well documented here for many years before ETC owned them.

If you are doing mostly straight theater all Vivid doesn't sound like a good choice. You are probably going to want to mix your fixtures.
Vivid is the rock and roll deep dark heavy saturation model.
Lustr is the white and pastel specialist designed for theatrical style key and fill light.
Paletta is in the in between model designed to work well with a variety of tungsten and Gel fixtures.

I'm thinking you might want Vivid for your cycs,some Palettas for down lights, and maybe a few Lustr's to mess around with to use instead of PAR's.

You also might want to think about picking up some LED Pars. Elation's got some decent ones. There are lots of Chinese import LED Pars out there that are getting brighter, better made, and cheaper, give CB member BillESC a call for more on that world.
Get demos!

 

[jhdesynz]

Is there a teaser covering the top of the cyc? if so, the Selador's should be fine because your loosing the top 1ft or so of the cyc. After that, the beam should be blended enough to cover. If not, you will need to tweek it a bit, but can prob make it work. I would shy away from the Altman Cyc, its a great output field, but the intensity is not there. Plus you can't get the same color mix as the Selador's.

GaffTaper is correct. The Vivid R is the ETC recommendation for cyc's. This is coming from the actual techs that designed the fixtures. I would prob skip the Paletta in favor of Vivid R Ice fixtures and Vivid R Fire fixtures. They are designed for blues and reds respectively. Very useful for side and back light.

The Lustr would be an ideal front light replacement or as a downlight since is focused toward white light.

I also agree with adding Elation LED pars. Especially if you uplight your legs or like to scallop your main traveler when its closed.

Keep in mind when doing your house plot, you should still design a hybrid system. With the exception of the cyc, don't replace everything with LED's. You will still need the S4 PARs for white downlight. Plus there is only 1 LED leko so far, but no one wants to pay for it. The Source Four is definitely the right way to go. The HPL is giving you 1000w of light for 575w of power draw. ETC was green before people cared.

 

[LuxMax]

I would shy away from the Altman Cyc, its a great output field, but the intensity is not there. Plus you can't get the same color mix as the Selador's.

Have you actually used the Spectra Cyc?

The Altman Spectra Cyc fixtures are PLENTY bright, and incredibly even from top down for a cyc application. I have used them several times and they are excellent fixtures with a great color range. I have used the Selador fixtures before they were bought by ETC as well. The Seladors have a wider color gamut, but dialing up 7 colors instead of 4 to mix takes much longer to do and really kills you when you are trying to cue a show quickly. Granted it is nice to have color palettes set up already, but no current console or control software can handle the 7 discrete colors that will quickly give you access via HSI or color wheel. The Altmans give me 99% of the colors I need for any given show. In the Selador case, sometimes more is just more, not necessarily better. The Seladors are more of a general wash fixture, so you do need a top and bottom system if you want a nice even cyc wash.
While Altman claims that 8' centers are OK, I usually design them to be at 4' up to about a 24' trim. 2' centers is the sweet spot for me if budget allows.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Heres the thing, the money people are going to be a LOT happier with the cost of outfitting with Altman Spectra Cyc's.


I'm sorry, but a strip light is still a strip light, A-lamp, R40, T3, Selador, MultiPAR. It's (almost) always going to take spreader lenses and diffusion to get a truly good cyc wash from strip lights, and this comes with losses in intensity and punch. In our theatre at school, we simply don't have the throw space to get our six 3-cell unit MultiPAR's back far enough for an even wash without losing half the deck, and scalloping always occurs. It would take MultiPAR's going 30+ feet continuously stage right to stage left to get a wash that would match "real" cyc lights. I thought the point was to use LESS units, fewer lamps, and less power. I thought the point was to move beyond X-rays, thereby freeing up space and allowing easier handling of lighting units. The asymmetrical cyc lights were designed with reason and for a purpose, CYC LIGHTING. Im my humble opinion, ETC has not yet figured out a perfect cyc solution. They have workable solutions, yes, but not, in my mind, ideal.

/rant

 

[joeboo46]

I do have a teaser in front of the cyc which actually causes me to lose about 2.5 to 3' at the top of the cyc. Being that we do the T3 units at the top and R40s at the bottom we are looking into replacing all the units with LEDs. Quite frankly, the T3s (currently lamped at 1k) cover from top to bottom pretty well, better than most situations I've been in with T3s. So i'm thinking with two sets of LED strips, one up top, and one as a ground row coverage probably wont be a huge issue. The visible portion of the cyc is actually not very big.

 

[xander]

I was going to post yesterday and, well, just didn't, and now everyone has pretty much said what I was going to say. So, I will just reiterate. Seladors are great fixtures. Amazing color gamut. Good punch. Everything that comes with being ETC. However, I have to agree with what some have already said. I don't like them as cyc lights. Throw up some 11" units as "PAR" back light or side light systems. Grab a nice long strip and uplight a wall or flat. But, as a cyc light you really need correct spacing, distance, and top and ground row to get anything even. The Altman Spectra Cyc 100 on the other hand is a really good cyc light. RGBA is not as inclusive as the x7 System, but it is usually (99% of the time) enough for a cyc. IT IS really bright (if jhdesynz has ever used them, maybe it was the older 38w RGB model) and super smooth. The "new" one, as the name implies, is 100w and is RGBA.

A strip light is more of a "jack-of-many-trades," as it can do many different things reasonably well, while the cyc light is the professional, it doesn't do much else, but man is it good at what it does.

If you are in fact looking for, as you say you are, a cyc light replacement, I would definitely demo the Altman Spectra Cyc 100.

-Tim

 

[jhdesynz]

Have you actually used the Spectra Cyc?

The Altman Spectra Cyc fixtures are PLENTY bright, and incredibly even from top down for a cyc application. I have used them several times and they are excellent fixtures with a great color range. I have used the Selador fixtures before they were bought by ETC as well. The Seladors have a wider color gamut, but dialing up 7 colors instead of 4 to mix takes much longer to do and really kills you when you are trying to cue a show quickly. Granted it is nice to have color palettes set up already, but no current console or control software can handle the 7 discrete colors that will quickly give you access via HSI or color wheel. The Altmans give me 99% of the colors I need for any given show. In the Selador case, sometimes more is just more, not necessarily better. The Seladors are more of a general wash fixture, so you do need a top and bottom system if you want a nice even cyc wash.
While Altman claims that 8' centers are OK, I usually design them to be at 4' up to about a 24' trim. 2' centers is the sweet spot for me if budget allows.

I have used the Spectra Cyc. I was not impressed. That is one of the problems with LED units. You need to demo them in your space. Not trying to perpetuate the argument, just saying get a demo.

 

[JChenault]

The Seladors have a wider color gamut, but dialing up 7 colors instead of 4 to mix takes much longer to do and really kills you when you are trying to cue a show quickly. Granted it is nice to have color palettes set up already, but no current console or control software can handle the 7 discrete colors that will quickly give you access via HSI or color wheel.

Er - not to blow my own horn but for a recent installation using seladors we tweaked the color picker in our control software so you can use the color wheel / saturation slider to select the color, and also tweak the levels of each color directly if that is your wish. You can also set up your own custom colors that can be quickly and easily picked from the screen. This feature will be available in our next release.

The interesting thing about color selection for multi color LED's that I have not seen generally addressed by the industry is how to allow the user to easily select a color AND to let the user get down to the metal to tweak a color just a bit as desired. Most of the color theorists think of color on a white surface. In the theatre we live with various colored surfaces so it is important to give the designer the ability to get down to the metal when desired. On a white surface, red and blue do make amber. On certain colored surfaces - not so much.

 

[LuxMax]

I have used the Spectra Cyc. I was not impressed. That is one of the problems with LED units. You need to demo them in your space. Not trying to perpetuate the argument, just saying get a demo.

Were you not impressed with a single demo fixture or a batten with several fixtures set up on a cyc?

 

[shiben]

. On a white surface, red and blue do make amber. On certain colored surfaces - not so much.

I thought they made purple...

 

[jmabray]

Have you actually used the Spectra Cyc?

Granted it is nice to have color palettes set up already, but no current console or control software can handle the 7 discrete colors that will quickly give you access via HSI or color wheel.

Not true. Eos, Ion, Element, Congo and Congo Jr all have the 7 color model available via HSI and Color Wheel.

 

[jhdesynz]

Were you not impressed with a single demo fixture or a batten with several fixtures set up on a cyc?

Lux, I am the one telling the OP to get an onsite demo. I have seen a full batten hung as recommended. It was not impressive against stage light. If it works for your space, great. Its not going to work for everyone. Just like the Seladors. They may work for the OP, they may not.

I am sorry, but you need to stop arguing with people and make suggestions like everyone else. People are going to disagree, but offering your perspective while still respecting the opinion of others is what this group is about.

----

jmabray is correct, the X7 color engine is available on all the ETC desks as well as i believe the grandMA and the Barco RoadHog Full Boar. The software for the color engine is make by a company in the UK who sell it to all the desk manufacturers. I can't think of the name though.

Colormixing with any LED will need to be adjusted for what they are covering though. As an additive color process, the color will look different on various surfaces and skin tones. You start with a console's built in mixer, but you should always tweak it by hand.

 

[LuxMax]

I wasn't arguing anything, I was just asking questions, my friend.

I'm sure ETC has it figured out, I just have not used their controls recently.
And to clarify, the X7 profile on the Road Hog/H3 allows you to only manually dial in the extra 4 colors, it does not let you use the color picker to get use of all 7 LED colors.

 

[jmabray]

jmabray is correct, the X7 color engine is available on all the ETC desks as well as i believe the grandMA and the Barco RoadHog Full Boar. The software for the color engine is make by a company in the UK who sell it to all the desk manufacturers. I can't think of the name though.

Carollon is the name of it. They provide a service to most console manufacturers writing fixture definitions.

 

[MNicolai]

The software for the color engine is make by a company in the UK who sell it to all the desk manufacturers.

The company you're thinking of is Carallon. They develop the fixture libraries for many different manufacturers and provide them for console manufacturers and other control devices. They're also a lot of the magic behind the development of Unison Paradigm and Mosaic.

When I use Selador for events, I always use the color picker to get close to the colors I want, then manually tweak the colors. You'll not find any far better options out there at this point given that any LED fixture manufactured now will have slightly different color characteristics than one from a batch 6 months later. Not only will there be slight differences between batches of LED's, but as LED's are used, their brightness diminishes slightly. Not so much that you'd notice if you bought a batch of several dozen LED fixtures now and used them somewhat evenly over the course of a few years. Take any LED fixture off of the production line today and compare it with one from a batch made up a year ago and you'll see some major differences in the color-mixing and intensity.

Color pickers at this time can only get you close to the color you want, but you'll need to do some tweaking. This isn't just a Selador quirk, but is a standard obstacle you'll find with all LED fixtures. Even in a perfect world where every fixture is able to maintain perfect calibration, people will still need to tweak their colors because finding a color on a color picker that you like doesn't mean it will reproduce onto the surfaces your lights are aimed at in the way that you want. Thus, some slight tweaking is necessary.

I believe that Prism Projection has been implementing a CRI sensor into their products that helps maintain as-close-as-possible calibration over the life of the fixture, but even then eventually the fixture will be physically unable to reach the deep colors it was able to reach when it was first assembled in the factory.