Using shutters as an iris?

[gafftaper]

Hey gaff, we got to be nice to all these high schoolers...
I always assumed that as far as technical skills went, this simply was'nt taught in high school, or at least it isn't taught well and/or the skill level and teaching level is erratic. I'm of the understanding that this is what college is/has been all about. Yes it's great to get high schoolers with *some* knowledge, but we alway's need to assume they know nothing and to start from scratch. That's how every college tech theater programs works, or at least the ones I'm familar with.
SB

Oh you are right Steve. I was lifting the curtain a little to share my personal frustration with college freshman who think they know it all. I know that very little teaching of good tech skills is going on out there and I don't expect anything from new kids coming into my class. I also meant that as part of the bigger picture of this thread (high school techs should focus on learning the basics instead of playing with movers). Because in general they aren't learning basic skills... again learn to drive before you get in the seat of a BMW.

The beauty of my current situation is that there is a lot of interaction with 5 local high school theater programs and I spend a lot of time at two of the schools teaching some short workshops and working side by side with the students as a tech supervisor.

AND by the way, to every professional reading this thread... get you butt down to the local high school and volunteer. You know what's going on and how desperate they probably are for just a little help with lighting, sound, safety training on rigging... whatever your specialty, donate a few hours a month they'll love you and treat you like a hero.

 

[Charc]

Oh you are right Steve. I was lifting the curtain a little to share my personal frustration with college freshman who think they know it all. I know that very little teaching of good tech skills is going on out there and I don't expect anything from new kids coming into my class. I also meant that as part of the bigger picture of this thread (high school techs should focus on learning the basics instead of playing with movers). Because in general they aren't learning basic skills... again learn to drive before you get in the seat of a BMW.
The beauty of my current situation is that there is a lot of interaction with 5 local high school theater programs and I spend a lot of time at two of the schools teaching some short workshops and working side by side with the students as a tech supervisor.
AND by the way, to every professional reading this thread... get you butt down to the local high school and volunteer. You know what's going on and how desperate they probably are for just a little help with lighting, sound, safety training on rigging... whatever your specialty, donate a few hours a month they'll love you and treat you like a hero.

Thanks Gaff, I get what you're saying about the learning to drive (I come up for my driving test in a couple months, got a lot more practicing to do though.). I think my frustration with our program is that I want to learn, but haven't realized until the end of this year, how great and experienced our old TD was, he actually knew his stuff. Our new TD is actually a director... The caliber of our work has gone significantly down. So the frustration is that I feel like something like the exact way of doing some of the basics (example, using a wrench properly) can't really be explained, unless in person, with a wrench and a clamp. I mean those types of skills I'd like to develop and build on, but I haven't found any resource where I can get that kind of training. I mean I've learned tons and tons and tons from CB and reading manufacturer websites, and the internet in general, but sadly none of that can replace not having an actual technician, as a technical director.

I think it's interesting that in the list of things you look for in a green college tech, you listed being able to create a decent light-plot, and working with color. In my mind that the actual design process has never surfaced. I can't even begin to fathom sitting down to draft a lightplot. Working with color, I feel is also another more advanced technique. I mean, it's one thing to look at the emotional context of a color, and how that is going to feel to the audience. I think it's a completely different thing to analyze complimentary colors, and how those complements effect the color of the light, and how the shadows differ, or the different temperatures of white light. I feel like a lot of that can't come without actually sitting down and designing a plot. You mentioned "finding out what angle instrument to use". I tried doing that in my theater. I requested a copy of architectural drawings / blueprints. What I got had lines all over it from non-existent hypothetical house-lights, and wasn't to perfect scale, and was completely unclear. I couldn't even tell where the AP slots were. I don't know how I'm supposed to figure out the angle to use if I don't even know how far the throw is! (I have since figured out if I take a piece of yarn, and spike tape every foot, for 100 feet, and tie it to the pipe, and throw it into the house... you get the idea, I'll figure it out when school resumes.) Another thing I thought was interesting was the "ability to pick a decent gel color". I'm not quite sure what you mean. I mean, I thought it would be specified by the designer, so that it was pretty cut and dry for anyone except the designer. For the designer, well I thought they were supposed to have an advanced conceptual understanding of the use/effect/etc. of light, and in that respect should be easy. I'm not trying to disillusion myself into thinking I'm a designer. I sure as hell know I'm not, but I'm looking forward to college as a time to learn design. By the way, it's interesting that you mention that the fun DMX toys get abandoned in a storage room when no one knows how to use them. That is how I came across are, still, unused I-Cue. I requested a DMX line put in this summer (It literally requires drilling a hole in the roof of the booth and pulling it to the cats, not that hard. Or, it could be snaked through the walls, in the pre-drilled holes), but I'm 90% sure there won't be anything there in the fall. I really want to spend the money for the DMX line so we can utilize this 600 dollars of equipment sitting around. (Not to mention the gobo rotator and image projector remaining unused.) I think that high school is a time to explore the field, begin to learn the basics, and have fun in theatre. I think it should be expected that fresh college techs will have some learning / retraining to do. As for the know-it-alls, take 'em down a peg in the next load-in if something goes wrong, or develop some kind of test, I dunno.

 

[Sean]

Do you remember the Pythagorean theorem? a^2 + b^2 = c^2

The following assumes that the "point" in the house and the stage are roughly at the same height. If they are VERY different heights, it will be a problem, but for 90% of cases the following will get you close enough for lighting purposes.

Get a plumb bob (weight on a string) and lower it down from the catwalk. Mark the point in the house where it lands. Pull up the string and measure it (it will be the distance from pipe to floor). Subtract ~5-6 feet. This is because one usually measures throw distance to the actor's face. This dimension is "a".

Measure from that point in the house to the point on stage where you want to know the throw distance. This is "b".

Do the math with your trusty calculator (one of the tools an ME uses, by the way). This should be accurate enough for figuring out lamp spacing, etc. If you're trying to draft the space, don't worry about the throw distance, that's a measurement that you get from the drawing.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

--Sean

 

[Charc]

Do you remember the Pythagorean theorem? a^2 + b^2 = c^2
The following assumes that the "point" in the house and the stage are roughly at the same height. If they are VERY different heights, it will be a problem, but for 90% of cases the following will get you close enough for lighting purposes.
Get a plumb bob (weight on a string) and lower it down from the catwalk. Mark the point in the house where it lands. Pull up the string and measure it (it will be the distance from pipe to floor). Subtract ~5-6 feet. This is because one usually measures throw distance to the actor's face. This dimension is "a".
Measure from that point in the house to the point on stage where you want to know the throw distance. This is "b".
Do the math with your trusty calculator (one of the tools an ME uses, by the way). This should be accurate enough for figuring out lamp spacing, etc. If you're trying to draft the space, don't worry about the throw distance, that's a measurement that you get from the drawing.
Let me know if this doesn't make sense.
--Sean

Yea it makes sense, and I know enough basic geometry and trig to work around angles and distances of triangles. Just, I don't have A, B, or C. I only have the angle. But, again with the string thing. That'll pretty easily allow me to get the height of the pipes off the stage, and the distance of the pipes from the stage.

 

[Sean]

Yea it makes sense, and I know enough basic geometry and trig to work around angles and distances of triangles. Just, I don't have A, B, or C. I only have the angle. But, again with the string thing. That'll pretty easily allow me to get the height of the pipes off the stage, and the distance of the pipes from the stage.

I'm confused....what do you mean you "only have the angle"? Do you mean "c" the Hypotenuse?

--Sean

 

[Jezza]

Don't forget the Law of Sines and the Law of Cosines:

Sin A/Side a = Sin B/side b and c^2=a^2b^2+2abCosC

Both of these can be used to find your distances if you don't have a right triangle (ie. the height to the the grid above the stage does not equal the height of the grid where your FOH position is. These will take into account those imperfections and give you the correct throw from any position.

Charcoal--Head to Home Depot and pick up a surveryors tape measure. That will typically be in excess of a couple hundred feet and will allow you to measure pretty much everything dead on. A plum bob would be great as well to attatch on the bottom once you've got it hanging from the grid. With the tape, another person, and a little time and patience, you should be able to figure out every angle and every throw distance in your theater without the use of blue prints. Additioanlly, if you keep your meansurements of everything in a log book or do a very rough sketch as you go along, you can then sit down with a piece of paper and ruler and do a to scale drawing or your space. Usuaully 1/2" or 1/4" scale will work fine.

 

[Charc]

Don't forget the Law of Sines and the Law of Cosines:
Sin A/Side a = Sin B/side b and c^2=a^2b^2+2abCosC
Both of these can be used to find your distances if you don't have a right triangle (ie. the height to the the grid above the stage does not equal the height of the grid where your FOH position is. These will take into account those imperfections and give you the correct throw from any position.
Charcoal--Head to Home Depot and pick up a surveryors tape measure. That will typically be in excess of a couple hundred feet and will allow you to measure pretty much everything dead on. A plum bob would be great as well to attatch on the bottom once you've got it hanging from the grid. With the tape, another person, and a little time and patience, you should be able to figure out every angle and every throw distance in your theater without the use of blue prints. Additioanlly, if you keep your meansurements of everything in a log book or do a very rough sketch as you go along, you can then sit down with a piece of paper and ruler and do a to scale drawing or your space. Usuaully 1/2" or 1/4" scale will work fine.

Yes, I thought I'd make a rough sketch, with all the important distances labeled, and post in on the wall in the booth.

 

[gafftaper]

Thanks Gaff, I get what you're saying about the learning to drive (I come up for my driving test in a couple months, got a lot more practicing to do though.). I think my frustration with our program is that I want to learn, but haven't realized until the end of this year, how great and experienced our old TD was, he actually knew his stuff. Our new TD is actually a director... The caliber of our work has gone significantly down. So the frustration is that I feel like something like the exact way of doing some of the basics (example, using a wrench properly) can't really be explained, unless in person, with a wrench and a clamp. I mean those types of skills I'd like to develop and build on, but I haven't found any resource where I can get that kind of training. I mean I've learned tons and tons and tons from CB and reading manufacturer websites, and the internet in general, but sadly none of that can replace not having an actual technician, as a technical director.
I think it's interesting that in the list of things you look for in a green college tech, you listed being able to create a decent light-plot, and working with color. In my mind that the actual design process has never surfaced. I can't even begin to fathom sitting down to draft a lightplot. Working with color, I feel is also another more advanced technique. I mean, it's one thing to look at the emotional context of a color, and how that is going to feel to the audience. I think it's a completely different thing to analyze complimentary colors, and how those complements effect the color of the light, and how the shadows differ, or the different temperatures of white light. I feel like a lot of that can't come without actually sitting down and designing a plot. You mentioned "finding out what angle instrument to use". I tried doing that in my theater. I requested a copy of architectural drawings / blueprints. What I got had lines all over it from non-existent hypothetical house-lights, and wasn't to perfect scale, and was completely unclear. I couldn't even tell where the AP slots were. I don't know how I'm supposed to figure out the angle to use if I don't even know how far the throw is! (I have since figured out if I take a piece of yarn, and spike tape every foot, for 100 feet, and tie it to the pipe, and throw it into the house... you get the idea, I'll figure it out when school resumes.) Another thing I thought was interesting was the "ability to pick a decent gel color". I'm not quite sure what you mean. I mean, I thought it would be specified by the designer, so that it was pretty cut and dry for anyone except the designer. For the designer, well I thought they were supposed to have an advanced conceptual understanding of the use/effect/etc. of light, and in that respect should be easy. I'm not trying to disillusion myself into thinking I'm a designer. I sure as hell know I'm not, but I'm looking forward to college as a time to learn design. By the way, it's interesting that you mention that the fun DMX toys get abandoned in a storage room when no one knows how to use them. That is how I came across are, still, unused I-Cue. I requested a DMX line put in this summer (It literally requires drilling a hole in the roof of the booth and pulling it to the cats, not that hard. Or, it could be snaked through the walls, in the pre-drilled holes), but I'm 90% sure there won't be anything there in the fall. I really want to spend the money for the DMX line so we can utilize this 600 dollars of equipment sitting around. (Not to mention the gobo rotator and image projector remaining unused.) I think that high school is a time to explore the field, begin to learn the basics, and have fun in theatre. I think it should be expected that fresh college techs will have some learning / retraining to do. As for the know-it-alls, take 'em down a peg in the next load-in if something goes wrong, or develop some kind of test, I dunno.

Hey Charc,
I've been out of town camping... just got back to civilization and the internet. As for this post. My point was those are all things I WISH I could expect from high school tech's coming into my college program. The are things I VERY rarely find but they are possible. When I was teaching high school, by the time they spent a couple years working with me, my crew new all that stuff. They did the designs, they chose colors, they chose instruments and locations, they programed all the cues... etc. Unfortunately, your situation of having someone who knows nothing about tech is far more common than you might think. On the flip side, I was pretty much useless as an acting instructor.

As for the distance question, two easy solutions, get a really long measuring tape... my 100 footer cost me about $20 at Home Depot. Or this has already been mentioned but here is the "Geometry for dummies" version. Measure vertical distance above the stage -4 feet (I go for center of actor's chest)... square that number. Measure horizontal distance from instrument to actor.... square that number. Add both squared numbers. Press Square Root button and you have the throw distance.

Next, you need to decided your target area of light. I've heard some people go as small as 8 feet and as large as 15. Typically an area is defined as the amount of space it takes for two people to act a scene. However in the real world that gets adjusted a lot to fit the dimensions of the space and the reality of the lighting inventory.

To figure out the size of the light pool at a distance, multiply the throw distance by the number below:
Source 4
50 Degree: .93
36 degree: .65
26 degree: .46
19 degree: .31
10 degree: .178
5 degree: .119

Altman 360
6X9: .62
6X12: .41
6X16: .29
6X22: .19

Other brands/models will be very similar but not exact.

 

[SteveB]

again learn to drive before you get in the seat of a BMW. QUOTE]

Totally off topic - sort of.

Two male teenagers were killed this past spring on a local highway, namely the Northern Parkway, on Long Island, NY, when they exited the roadway at a very, very high speed (in excess of 100mph), hitting trees, etc... while driving daddy's BMW.

When I read/hear of this sort of thing, (this seemingly happens frequently around these parts) I wonder what dumb assed parent lets a driver whose experience level behind the wheel is minimal, drive a car whose design features are to be driven fast.

Maybe in a way that's a very good metaphor for high school lighting. Don't give them toys they don't understand how to handle. Let them get the basics down first.

SB

 

[gafftaper]

A sad story and unfortunately too common.

The difference in the metaphor is that it doesn't hurt a high school tech to have cool toys to play with. Hey if you've got a huge budget and you do a lot of concert type stuff then some movers are a great idea. But the typical situation is that the conventional inventory is small and not well maintained. The building itself needs some work to make it properly lightable in the first place. The low end toys, which are far more useful to theater applications, like seachangers/scrollers, rotators, and I-cues/right arms are not in existence.

You know that last point hasn't been fully discussed in this thread and it's another important point. High School theater programs have limited money and so they need to spend it on the most useful tools for the application. So for this hypothetical discussion, let's say you've got about $1100 to spend and you already have a nice full conventional inventory, a good console, plenty dimmers, you don't need to add any lighting positions. You have all the basics fully covered.

Dollar values based on quotes I received about 4 months ago...
-A VL1000 with lamp, mega claw clamps, and safety cables is about $5500.
We'll use Seachangers and Right arms as they don't need powers supplies...
-A Seachanger runs about $1600
-Right Arm $900

SO for the cost of two VL1000's $1100 you can get 4 Seachangers with Right Arms and have $1000 left over for a DMX Iris.

Every theater show you do in that space you are going to find endless ways to use those four super source 4s They'll be your specials, a color wash, they can move. Think of the limitless possibilities. Now True the VL1000's can do the same thing... but don't forget you have to replace that $100 lamp every 300 hours... so you are going to be careful about when you turn them on. The Source4s with a long life lamp will last you years.

If you don't want the right arms for the same price as 2 VL1000's you can get 7 Seachangers. SEVEN! If the stage isn't too huge, that's enough to wash the whole stage and you now have INFINITE color control over that one wash. Thank about that. What does that do to your lighting design?

On the Flip side with the VL1000s you can spin gobos which is nice... how many shows have you NEEDED a gobo rotator for? In the last 10 years I did a fire effect for Quilters, I made a spining cylcone for Wizard of OZ, and I also did a snow storm for something. I can rent a double rotator and power supply from the local theater place for $75... multiply by 3 times used... hmmm.

Ok the VL1000 does have the Shutter or Iris Feature... that's cool for musicals... I can see using it in a musical if you didn't have a follow spot. Of course you can rent a follow spot for $100-$275 a week.

Do you see my point? Since Most high schools have extremely limited budgets it's important to choose how you spend your tech money wisely. While a set of a dozen or so VL1000's is an awesome sight on Broadway, we aren't producing shows like that. Often all we really want out of the mover is just the color mixing and reposition abilities... which can be purchased for far less money. The huge regional theater in town here uses 250-500 conventional lighting instruments for a show. They have a couple dozen color scrollers, some I cues, gobo rotators, animation projectors. Last I heard they had decided to purchase 4 VL1000's. Why so few? It's not that they aren't cool, it's just that they don't need them and it isn't a wise way to spend their money.

Now, if you are doing a lot of concerts then the ability to watch lights move, dance, change shape, color, size, position... yeah it's a very important powerful effect. But we don't do that in theater. In fact if you get a reputation for doing it too much in theater you won't get work because it's distracting attention away from the acting performance.

So summarize back to and old post:
Priority One... a fully equipped conventional inventory and a theater that has all the proper lighting positions and infrastructure.
Priority Two... low end toys like Seachangers/Scrollers, I-cue/Right Arm, DMX IRis, I-pro, Gobo Rotators, follow spots, X-effects projector, Rosco Infinity animation system.
Priority Three... The big toys.

 

[DarSax]

In fact if you get a reputation for doing it too much in theater you won't get work because it's distracting attention away from the acting performance.

Did a production of Dracula this year where I wasn't LD/ME for once. Was basically all movers, and HELL was it distracting. (And the dude didn't even know what VL1000s were, so the entire show was eerie, hightemp white. Ugh). I haven't seen a musical yet where I liked moving lights, save for Wicked's razzle-dazzle vari-lite flight scene.

 

[gafftaper]

I really liked this post from Footer in another thread and thought I would bring it over here as it fits really well with what I've been trying to say.

10 is a great number to have, you can easily cover a stage with that. What I personaly hate is when people drop 10-20 grand on 4 wash fixtures. They dont have enough to actually do anything. In a concert situation any mover is a welcomed addition, in theatre, its a glorified special that probably wont be able to do exacly what you want it to do in ever situation. I would rather have the extra 60 source fours and a nice rep plot then 3 or 4 studio colors or save that money and rent occasionally when I can and when I need to.
If your going to get movers, figure out what you want to replace in your current plot. If you have 20 specials plotted that you have to focus for every group, replace those with 8-10 fixtures, if you want a poppy backlight system, go with 10 or so wash fixtures... If you have a position FOH that is just horrible to get to, go with a VL1000 or the like.

That's exactly why I'm saying that movers should be the lowest priority for High School theater. It's not about you having the opportunity to try something new, it's about you having all the tools to do your job correctly.

 

[Grog12]

Uh... I guess this thread as completely exposed my lack of knowledge.
Uh... it's not an onstage electric... And no 19º isn't huge, it's just bigger than I'd want. The throw, I believe it to be around 50 feet (Plus or minus 15 feet). This would be from about our 3rd or 4th FOH slot.
Oh, okay, so maybe a terrible question, but would a Mac 700 also be considered a "leko moving light", or what not?

I'll go against the grain and say yeah...if it really is a 50' throw a 19 degree is a little big. Generally I want my area light to be between 8'-13' depending on the space. 15 and a half feet works...but it generally ends up being a little dim for my taste.

 

[Charc]

I'll go against the grain and say yeah...if it really is a 50' throw a 19 degree is a little big. Generally I want my area light to be between 8'-13' depending on the space. 15 and a half feet works...but it generally ends up being a little dim for my taste.

What I meant was, as a special (/ tight special) it's too big. As an area light, I recall it being on the big-side, but still completely useable.

For specials I usually use a 6x22 w/ iris.