Wireless Mics Required?

[LandonParks]

Good morning everyone. I have a question related to wireless mics. We have a 120-seat venue that we are going to be presenting Narnia the musical in this December. It has a 7-piece orchestra, and I would like to know if we should invest in wireless microphones for the actors? The actors we deal with are generally not pure amateurs and most have at least some projection ability; but I am concered they will get drowned out by the orchestra.

For this show, the orchestra will be located behind the actors. I have attached a link to a plot of the stage/seating and some pics if that might help is determining. I want this production to be as professional as possible; but would like to avoid the $15,000 mic expense (and don't really want to rent either). I have seen two musicals produced here (both with live orchestras): Into the Woods was un-mic'ed and Little Shop of horrors was mic'ed (at least some of the actors). Into the woods sounded pretty good to me, although I was sitting in the second row.

Plot: [media]http://www.artlives.org/auditorium.gif[/media]Pic 1: [media]http://www.artlives.org/space%20photos/auditorium1.jpg[/media]Pic 2: [media]http://www.artlives.org/space%20photos/straight%20stage%20shot%20copy.jpg[/media]Pic 3:[media]http://www.artlives.org/space%20photos/aud%20seating.jpg[/media]Thanks,
Landon Parks,
Artistic Director
Bloomington Repertory Theatre Company

 

[gafftaper]

I would mic it. Definitely don't rent. Buy if at all possible. There was some excellent advice about buying mics in a this recent thread.

 

[bishopthomas]

Why do you want to own the microphones? Is this an annual (or more) event, or a one time show? Buying cheap mics because you want to own them and that's all you can afford is a HUGE mistake. I have guest engineered at enough performing arts centers to have seen (and had to deal with) that mistake too many times. They always end up renting at the last minute, thus spending even MORE money, sometimes that extends to purchasing the higher quality mics next year.

Please do yourself a favor and price out the rental of a decent wireless system. Then calculate how many times you will need it and how much that will cost. Then you will know if it is better to rent or buy a COMPARABLE system. Do not price out Sennheiser 5000's for rentals and compare that to purchasing the Shure "Presenter" system.

Where are you located and how many systems would you need?

 

[BillESC]

Let's look at some numbers, then the decision should be easy.

Professional level wireless systems generally rent for $ 100.00 per system per week. So seven mics would be $ 700.00 (or $ 1400.00 if you rent them two weeks.)

Using $ 500.00 as a minimum Pro entry level wireless system, seven will cost you $ 3500.00

Doing just one show a year returns your investment in just 5 years or 3 years for two week rentals and you get to rehearse with them anytime you want.

 

[bishopthomas]

Bill, I know that I don't have to tell you about the factors that you're leaving out in your calculations. But just for those reading along... Take into consideration, mainly, the cost of maintenance. You could easily add a year or two to that amortization. Do you really want to be paying off those entry level microphones seven years from now? Are you certain you'll still be doing shows where you need them? Bill didn't even take into account the price of a distribution setup, which can cost several hundred dollars and into the thousands.

You may very well be better off purchasing, but it's up to you to make that educated decision for yourself based on your circumstances. I'm a Sennheiser dealer and should be jumping at the chance to make a quick $3500 sell, but it may not be right for you in the long run.

 

[Footer]

In a 150 seat venue you should not need mics. That looks like a pretty small room. My venue is a 500 seater and we don't use mics. With some it is a bit of an issue but with anyone with decent voice training its not an issue at all. Go without. Have a contingency to rent if need be. People need to learn how to project beyond the 2nd row.

 

[LandonParks]

We'll, we are a producing theatre with a 6-show season. This year, we are only doing 2 musicals and 3 plays. For this space, I would NEVER mic the plays.

I was looking at the Senn 100 G3 series with 11 cannels to start (to mic the principles in narnia) and then build on the system slowly as needed. Personally, I would asoon not use mic's myself; but I want the production to be as professional sounding as possible. The un-mic'ed into the woods sounded really good in there, but they were all college-trained actors. Not sure how my little "Lucy" (10 years old and squeeky) will fair again a 7 piece orchestra in the background. However, if I mic one actor I really need to mic all the principles (11).

For us, it's cheaper in the long-run to buy over rent. If we do 4 musicals a year (maybe as much as 5 in one year) then we can break the price down more evenly. Most of our shows will require at least 16 channels, so figuring that:
Renting at $100 per week per channel x 16 channels x 3 weeks each show = $4,800 per show x 4 shows = $19,200.
Buying, I can get a 16 channel Senn G3 100 series with MM Audio mics, antenna distro and tack case for $15,000. We can also rent out the system to other theatre's in town when we are not using it to make extra money.
By my figures, we have the system paid off in less than one year over renting.

 

[CSCTech]

Like the others say go for them and get them if the money is available, if I may suggest Sennheiser ew 100s are very good in my opinion. We use them in our 350 seat theatre and have never had a problem.

However if you are in desprit need of amplification and just simply don't have the money..which some people just do not seem to understand, which I am with you LandonParks, if the money simply is not there, something needs to fill in. So I might suggesta few area microphones if you are in great need, however they might pick up the orchesta a bit if they are positioned correctly you should get most of the actors. Our venue being a proscenium theatre is quit different from your setup I am not sure if they will work as intended but it is always worth a shot.

 

[museav]

Unfortunately, the laws of physics do not change based on your budget. If I could just get my clients to understand that my life would be much easier.

The more knowns about the situation, the better anyone can understand it. Perhaps you can address some issues such as what the sound system is like, what the orchestra consists of and whether there will be any physical separation of the orchestra. It might also help to know things such as what you have for a mixer (does it have sufficient inputs, can you setup scenes or employ mute groups/VCAs and so on) and how conversant the operator(s) might be with mixing such a performance.

Have you used a similar orchestra in that space before? Just curious as to how it sounds by itself in that space or if there might be anything that could help them play softer while both hearing each other and getting a good natural mix to the audience.

With two musical per year and not all of those apparently requiring wireless mics, or at least a large number of wireless mics, I'm curious as to why the apparent resistance to renting?

 

[bishopthomas]

... and how conversant the operator(s) might be with mixing such a performance.

This is the "make or break" factor here. Renting OR buying a dozen wireless mics does not necessarily mean that your musical will sound, as you put it, "professional." Someone that knows what they're doing will still be required to mix the show, and (not to be rude) I assume that you may not be that person as it seems you are new to this world.

With two musical per year and not all of those apparently requiring wireless mics, or at least a large number of wireless mics, I'm curious as to why the apparent resistance to renting?

I agree, but it seems like the OP has $15,000 burning a hole in his pocket. I really don't think purchasing is the right thing to do at this point, but I will gladly take that cash off his hands in exchange for a Sennheiser wireless setup.

 

[LandonParks]

The Orchestra for Into The Woods did not really wash-out the actors at all. They had it set-up with the orchestra on the right side of the stage, separated by a 3' barrier around them. Sitting in the second row, I had no trouble at all hearing the actors. However, in a review in the new paper I read after the show, the reviewer specifically stated the lack of wireless mic's and how it was hard to hear the actors over the orchestra. I don't know what made me able to hear them and not him, other than maybe he was sitting in the back of the house (which, by the way, is only 5 rows back from the stage).

No, I am not running sound. We will be engaging an engineer and an assistant to wrangle mics and audio.


We are not producing two a year. Musicals make up an average of 4-5 of our shows each year. This, combined with the fact that we are doing 3 musicals next year (11/12) at a 600 seat house. We will regularly need (on an ongoing basis) as least enough mic's to cover the principles (Generally between 8 and 16 in each show).

It's not that I have $15,000 burning a hole in my pocket at all. I could find better uses for that money. I would prefer not to have to worry about mic's at all.

Here is a question I have: Why would I rent microphones at $300 per channel (we would need them for 3 weeks), when I can buy a new G3 setup with Mic and distro for about $750 a channel? In only 2 1/2 shows, we have effectively bough the microphones, only we don't have them to show for it.

I never did understand the desire to rent stuff. Renting is always more expensive than buying unless you just need a few mic's for a one-off occurrence once or twice a year. When you regularly rent for 3-week at a time several times per year, renting become very cost prohibitive.

Also, the only place that rents wireless here in town is Markies, and they only carry the Shure UHF-R's for multi-channel setups. These run $250 per channel per week. This means were going to have to calculate in shipping charges and shipping time for the rental of the system as well.

No, if we need Mics, we will be buying them. My question is, do we need them?

Thanks!

 

[Chris15]

Here is a question I have: Why would I rent microphones at $300 per channel (we would need them for 3 weeks), when I can buy a new G3 setup with Mic and distro for about $750 a channel? In only 2 1/2 shows, we have effectively bough the microphones, only we don't have them to show for it.

You are talking about 16 channels...

According to Sennheiser, you've got 4 usable channels in G block, and 3 each in A & B blocks at your location. So throwing that into Workbench (since Sennheiser won't give me a suitable software solution...), I can get 10 frequencies in each block, so you should be fine. I had initially thought you may be hard pressed to fit 16 systems into the available channels, but it looks like you'll be ok.

None of us can really tell you if you need mics without knowing the acoustics of your space, ie. standing in it and knowing the cast and orchestra, there are just too many variables...

 

[LandonParks]

The check I did through IAS Wireless software gave us 12 usable frequencies in "A", 12 in "B" and 13 in "G". Thats allowing for at least 1Mhz spread between each frequency.

 

[CSCTech]

Do you need them? No. A few area mics will get you by.
Will they make your actors more audible and sound better? Yes.

In your situation doing that many shows a year like you said, renting would not be a economical choice.

You mentioned you would want about 16 of them. I do not not work very large scale, but I think that is a bit much. But however I do not know how your show works, will 16+ speaking characters be on at once?
The shows we do never have ended up like that, and what we do is make it so not everyone will have their own microphone.

So say in Scene one character A is on with Mic 3. In scene 2 Character A is not on stage. In Scene 3 Character B needs a microphone and is on stage. During scene 2, Character A will give character B the microphone.

We have 10 Sennheiser wireless body packs using clip on mics. Never had a problem with the need for more mics.

But like I said I dont know how your show is going so this might not help you. Just to save money however, if you have the money go for all you can get your hands on.

Also something that concerns me, I get the impression you will not be mixing each mic individually? You mentioned using a Disto box. Sorry if that is incorrect. Doing that could potentially be bad as in order to correct the volume of the mics do adjust to each character you would need to set gains on the bodypacks. And if one starts to feedback you would need to have all the mics off to fix it. Also you wouldnt be able to turn off the mic when the character is offstage, however the actor could mute it themselves.

If there are other ways of getting around the problems of not mixing each themselves, sorry, I was unaware.

 

[Chris15]

Also something that concerns me, I get the impression you will not be mixing each mic individually? You mentioned using a Disto box.

Landon mentioned that an engineer would be engaged for the productions/s, so I'd suggest that the mics will be mixed conventionally.

A distro in the context would refer to an antenna distribution system, which may come with an added perk of power distribution...

 

[LandonParks]

I did not think of sharing microphones. We could potentially wire each actor with mic's and then just share body-packs between them. Personally, though, I would much rather just throw a mic on anyone who has any kind of substantial part in the show. In Narnia, for example, we would mic the 4 children, Aslan, White Witch, Mr and Mrs. Beaver, Fenris Ulf, Tumnus and the Dwarf. The background actors (characters of narnia) really only have chorus singing roles and very small speaking roles during non-music times in the script, so they won't be mic'ed.

I was not referring to mixing when I said "dsitro". I was referring to the system used to split the antenna's between the receivers. The better term would probably have been "antenna distribution". We have a 32 channel mixing board, so each mic will have it's own channel.

 

[CSCTech]

Well hey, we both gave each other ideas : ) I never thought of keeping mics on actors and switching body packs.

Yeah some shows we do not need to share, but if needed it sure beats spending a few hundred. But like I said if you have the money, more the merrier : )

And oh, antenna distro, got ya. We were thinking of getting one but never did. We have 20 antennas sticking out of the back of the stacks of recievers (Two of 5) ontop of our cd player rack : p

 

[museav]

The Orchestra for Into The Woods did not really wash-out the actors at all. They had it set-up with the orchestra on the right side of the stage, separated by a 3' barrier around them. Sitting in the second row, I had no trouble at all hearing the actors. However, in a review in the new paper I read after the show, the reviewer specifically stated the lack of wireless mic's and how it was hard to hear the actors over the orchestra. I don't know what made me able to hear them and not him, other than maybe he was sitting in the back of the house (which, by the way, is only 5 rows back from the stage).

And where were they seated? Could they maybe have been way over on the orchestra side? Would that be an issue for this production?

It's not that I have $15,000 burning a hole in my pocket at all. I could find better uses for that money. I would prefer not to have to worry about mic's at all.

Here is a question I have: Why would I rent microphones at $300 per channel (we would need them for 3 weeks), when I can buy a new G3 setup with Mic and distro for about $750 a channel? In only 2 1/2 shows, we have effectively bough the microphones, only we don't have them to show for it.

I never did understand the desire to rent stuff. Renting is always more expensive than buying unless you just need a few mic's for a one-off occurrence once or twice a year. When you regularly rent for 3-week at a time several times per year, renting become very cost prohibitive.

Also, the only place that rents wireless here in town is Markies, and they only carry the Shure UHF-R's for multi-channel setups. These run $250 per channel per week. This means were going to have to calculate in shipping charges and shipping time for the rental of the system as well.

No, if we need Mics, we will be buying them.

When you buy you also assume responsibility for maintenance, etc. and if a system goes down, there is probably no replacement provided. And then there's the cost of antennas, antenna distribution, rack, etc. Also look at what just happened with the 700MHz spectrum and people having to replace existing systems. The point is that there are costs beyond the basic purchase price that you incur when you purchase gear and that are also reflected in the cost of rentals.

Also related to the costs, a basic 100 Series G3 system is around $500. An antenna splitter and power supply for four mics adds probably another $100 to $150 per mic. Add in a rack, antennas, cabling, etc., that's maybe another $25-50 per mic. So probably $625 to $700 per mic plus tax, shipping, etc., possibly leaving little in your $750 per mic budget for the mics themselves, much less for the concept of multiple mics per transmitter.

I'm not saying whether purchase or rental is better for you, you have to make that decision based on your specific situation, however it sounds like you may be making a decision based on a potentially inaccurate assumption of the actual costs and benefits.

My question is, do we need them?

We don't know the room, don't know what the orchestra consists of or the stage layout, don't know the performers and so on, As Chris said, this means we can't really answer that question for you.

 

[bishopthomas]

MAP price on an EW112G3 is $600. An 8-way distro kit (with paddles) is $1750. A 4-way distro is $1175. So for a system of a dozen lav mics (keep adding if you want headsets) the MAP will be $10,125. That doesn't include the rack or the custom wiring/installation/interfacing job. Of course, you can get a better deal than that from your friendly Sennheiser dealer (there are several on this board that I'm sure would get you a better "friends of Control Booth" price), but that's what you'd pay if you walked into Guitar Center, and that's a good starting point and comparison price of purchasing/renting.

 

[mwalkertx320]

Not knowing your space it's hard to say.

We're a 200 seat space (120 dinner show w/120+ show only). My general rule of thumb is we mic all musicals, and non-musicals don't rate my services. We do 4 dinner shows a year plus several youth productions, and the last few years have seem to be mostly musicals, needless to say as the only audio guy - I always look foward to a non-musical even though that's not my thing.

If your orchestra is in the rear - I'd be concerned that area mics would actually pick up the orchestra and defeate their purpose of picking up the actors. I'm sure it's me, but I can never seem to get any useful volume out of my floor mics, and they always sound funky.