LED FOR FRONT LIGHTING? ADVICE NEEDED!

[Magnolia2011]

Hello CB!

We are looking to add some LED to our lighting set up. First of all, our lighting is extremely rudimentary. We have only old fresnels for front lighting and our grid is 11' high. These lights are very old and hot. We would like to augment our lighting by adding a few LED fixtures as front lighting wash/fill. I have always seen people here saying LEDs are not suitable for front lighting, but no one exactly (that I have found) has said just why except for the inability to get a pure white light. However, we don't think we want a pure white light as most of our purpose is theatrical. Our stage has primarily front lighting - our grid is incomplete.

With the new LED rgba and rgbaw kind of lights out now, can there be a suitable LED for front lighting? If so, what kind is recommended under $1,000 please? Also, can someone explain why LED are not suitable for front lighting positions?

Thank you in advance, CBers.

Maggie

 

[avkid]

$1000 per fixture?

 

[Magnolia2011]

$1000 per fixture?

Yes per fixture we want to spend no more than about $500-$600 per LED fixture. Any advice? thx

 

[Les]

Most people want more beam shaping capability in their front lights, which is why many will shy away from pars and even fresnels for that purpose. The ETC Source Four LED, Reflection LEDko or even the Robert Juliat Aledin would work very well in smaller spaces, but will come in above your price point. Your budget puts you squarely in the arena of higher quality of LED pars/bricks, but it's up to you whether or not you can live with very rudimentary beam shaping or none at all.

*Note that prices seen may be MSRP's and not the actual street price.

 

[Kicman]

From my experience, even something like the LED Source Four, just doesn't have the throw that a regular Source Four ERS. Honestly, if I were trying to bulk up my inventory with newer instruments I would get stuff that you can get enough of to actually work with.

In my opinion LED fixtures just aren't at the level they need to be at... yet. I have no doubt that in the future they will be, but right now, I would just stick to more conventional fixtures. You can get a regular Source 4 for like 300 bucks, and get additional lens tubes for around 60-80 bucks a pop.

Up to you, but honestly, LEDs just aren't worth the hefty price tag yet.

 

[chausman]

From my experience, even something like the LED Source Four, just doesn't have the throw that a regular Source Four ERS. Honestly, if I were trying to bulk up my inventory with newer instruments I would get stuff that you can get enough of to actually work with.

Look at the height. At 11' I doubt they need the intensity of a full size S4.

 

[Kicman]

Look at the height. At 11' I doubt they need the intensity of a full size S4.

That's true, but it will depend what you use them with. If you're using them along side a regular tungsten-halogen, they might not be as stark as you want them to be. But again, that all depends on the design.

 

[JChenault]

To answer your question of why LEDs are not great for front light.

There are basically two styles of LEDs for theatre. Those that color mixing so they can produce virtually any color, and those that are designed to produce white light.

The issue with the color mixing units ( RGBA, RGBAW, etc) is that spectral distribution of each color is very narrow. Basically this means that ( because of the way your eye percieves color) while you can mix any colors on a white wall, if you are trying to light costumes, or scenery, or faces - colored LEDs don't work very well. Your colors do not read correctly. The only way I have been happy using LEDs as the primary source of light is with ETC's selador line - and even this was using saturated colors.

The white LEDs have a more continuous spectrum, although they are usually strong in the blue end.

Now you don't say why you want LEDs. If it is for unlimited color in front light, you are probably going to be disappointed in your price range. You might look at a white LED in the 3000K range ( a way of describing how much blue is in the color, not the price). I was quite impressed by chauvet's new fixtures at LDI. For a less powerful and less expensive unit I liked Altman's spectra cube.

If you decide you have to have color mixing from the front, and you can't afford the Selador, go with RGBAW. Try the fixture out in your space. Bring in a panel of lots of fabric colors and see if you can live with the color problems before you spend your cash.

I wrote an article on this a year or so ago but can't find it right now. If I find it I will post the link to this thread.

 

[josh88]

The original post did mention heat, so presumably that's one of the reasons for wanting led.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Kelite]

Our stage has primarily front lighting - our grid is incomplete.

With the new LED rgba and rgbaw kind of lights out now, can there be a suitable LED for front lighting? If so, what kind is recommended under $1,000 please?

Hi Maggie, and welcome to the ControlBooth!

As with most applications of light and sound technology, there are few 'nevers'. Though somewhat recently introduced to the theater party, LEDs will be providing saturated front light more and more as time goes by. Aside from the obvious lower energy needs, as well the bonus of not using gel, LED wash fixtures provide light without the customary heat associated with conventionals. From profiles to wash fixtures, more flavors of LED fixtures are available now than ever.
I would suggest having a look at several fixtures within the market, including Apollo's RGBAW fixture- the HP5. Fanless with 5 pin DMX and PowerCon connectors for ease of use. The user may daisychain power as well as data when the need arises-


Apollo Design | Multiform HP5-70 IP20

With a List price of $665, these reliable units have been selling well. If you'd like a demo, just let me know-

(stepping down off soap box now...)

 

[BillESC]

The Apollo fixture warrants consideration as does Blizzard's Rocklite RGBAW which MAPs at $ 399

 

[lwinters630]

If your primary position is FOH and your goal is to reduce the heat while improving your flexibility, then consider this.

For FACE light I usually like white, even when dimmed it will amber out, and that's fine. Beam control is important as I don't want to spill on other areas.

For wash I like the LED for the ease of changing colors. One fixture can be blue in one scene and red in another, or even shift throughout the scene. So you will get a huge return on your $$ with LED wash fixtures.

So my suggestion is this, with an 11' trim I am assuming a smaller stage: Start with an overall plan for changing fixtures by adding three to five S4 ellipsoidal for front light straight on, and six or more LED wash fixtures. You will find your flexibility increased and set up time reduced. Heat will also be reduced.

Just buying a fixture without an overall plan will not help. Make your plan first.

IMHO

 

[DavidNorth]

Also, can someone explain why LED are not suitable for front lighting positions?

Thank you in advance, CBers.

Maggie

Hi Maggie,

I think most of the big reasons have been covered. If you need beam shaping to reduce or eliminate spill [ie using shutters to control light], then a basic LED wash light wil not work. Also, color is a very large consideration as you will be lighting faces and costumes/clothing. Natural looking light is hard to replicate using only colored LED emitters. Even if you do tend to drop gel into your front lights, gel is not a pure color like LEDs and it's all the other colors in a gel and the tungsten lamp that make the light look real to the eye and brain.

You might wish to take some time looking at the informative videos on the ETC YouTube channel, specifically numbers 12-16 and 20, which talk a lot about color, color theory and color management.

Using a set of tungsten fixtures for front light and filling in with LED elsewhere is wise and cost effective.

Hope that helps,

David

 

[Magnolia2011]

If your primary position is FOH and your goal is to reduce the heat while improving your flexibility, then consider this.

For FACE light I usually like white, even when dimmed it will amber out, and that's fine. Beam control is important as I don't want to spill on other areas.

For wash I like the LED for the ease of changing colors. One fixture can be blue in one scene and red in another, or even shift throughout the scene. So you will get a huge return on your $$ with LED wash fixtures.

So my suggestion is this, with an 11' trim I am assuming a smaller stage: Start with an overall plan for changing fixtures by adding three to five S4 ellipsoidal for front light straight on, and six or more LED wash fixtures. You will find your flexibility increased and set up time reduced. Heat will also be reduced.

Just buying a fixture without an overall plan will not help. Make your plan first.

IMHO

Yes, we were thinking about using s4s and LED washes. Thank you for confirming this idea. I agree about the plan. It was difficult to plan when I did not know what the big no-no was for LED for front lighting. But, after all the responses, it makes sense.

Thanks lwinters630

 

[Magnolia2011]

Hi Maggie,

I think most of the big reasons have been covered. If you need beam shaping to reduce or eliminate spill [ie using shutters to control light], then a basic LED wash light wil not work. Also, color is a very large consideration as you will be lighting faces and costumes/clothing. Natural looking light is hard to replicate using only colored LED emitters. Even if you do tend to drop gel into your front lights, gel is not a pure color like LEDs and it's all the other colors in a gel and the tungsten lamp that make the light look real to the eye and brain.

You might wish to take some time looking at the informative videos on the ETC YouTube channel, specifically numbers 12-16 and 20, which talk a lot about color, color theory and color management.

Using a set of tungsten fixtures for front light and filling in with LED elsewhere is wise and cost effective.

Hope that helps,

David

Yes, David it helps quite a bit and it all makes sense now. Thank you very much for this informative follow up and I will take a look at these videos. I think our final choice will be to get the s4's and a few LEDs and build from there. I am finding we cannot totally switch to LED, but integration on the front lighting position is possible and that is a start.

Thank you kindly

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We have been doing for our new buildings about what David describes: predominantly quartz profile units from the front but some LED profile units - can't be beat for color wash, especially blue; LED wash and some profiles over the stage; and of course LED on sky drops. The quartz is done with a local dimmer, like the Source4 dimmer on the yoke, so the building is ready with just distributed power (on relays) and data.

 

[rhatfield]

Good day guys,

I am technical director at a volunteer community theatre. Our space is a very nice little space with a partial thrust stage, 13' grid and 150 seat audience area. The building is actually an old converted fire hall.

I have been running LED pars for my top wash in my space now for nearly a season and have been having a HUGE amount of success with it. As far as our front wash, we have been in a holding pattern for 2 years as the source four style of fixtures were just not there yet in quality. One of my team members has been doing a fair amount of research for us and we have brought in many different fixtures to try out.

I have a couple recommendations if they are to be used in a theatre environment:
Top wash:
1) Try to NOT get the LEDs that have the colors separated in the fixture. They tend to get an nasty color halo effect with that short of a grid (our grid is 13'). Many of the newer Pars have all 4 colors behind a number of individual lenses. By doing this, it reduces the halo effect dramatically.
2) Get a light that doesn't jump in fading from 0% to 1%... many have a nasty snap to 10% when you go up from 0 to 1%. Likewise, on a slow fade, they often are quite jerky...
3) If you cannot get a throw that is far enough to get the proper beam spread, I tried tossing in a diffusion. I thought it would cause me all sorts of issues, but it worked beautifully and is now standard in our house hang.
4) Noise... because my fixtures are relatively close to my audience (we are a partial thrust stage in a 150 seat house) I am currently replacing the fans in all my LED top wash fixtures. Unfortunately there was just no fixtures that were available that came with a really quiet fan.

Front wash (Source four ellipsoidal fixtures)
I have been doing a lot of looking around and Philips Selecon is getting ready to release a new fixture PL1 to go with their PL3 and PL4 fixtures. We have been playing with their prototype fixtures at my supplier's office and a trade show they were presenting them at and WOW... these are nice fixtures. The PL1 will be a drop in replacement for the S4 Jr and the PL4 looks to be a very nice replacement for the Sr. Unfortunately, the PL4 looks to be way too big for my space, but I am going to be bringing a couple in to try out as soon as I can (trying to budget to buy some next season).

Now the gotcha... the Par fixtures are easily below $1,000 for a reasonable quality... the S4 styles (PL1 in my case) is nearly double that. BUT... you don't want to cheap out on the LED fixtures you buy. They may cost a bit extra, but you will save that much in electricity, bulbs, gel and ladder climbing in the first couple years alone.... not to mention the life span of your instruments.

I was able to sell my board of directors on the purchase of the LEDs pretty easily, although due to the cost and readiness of the technology when we were starting our move, I have broken it into a 5 year venture. The first 2 years were lighting console replacement and top wash, this year is wireless dmx and movers (we have 2 IQ fixtures we are expanding to 4 and replacing the lights with LED ellipsoidal) and the rest of the front wash the following one or 2 seasons.

Richard.

 

[rhatfield]

The Apollo fixture warrants consideration as does Blizzard's Rocklite RGBAW which MAPs at $ 399

I found this style of fixture to have nasty colored halo on a short throw (colors separated). The best solution I have found is where they have all 3/4 colors behind each of the lenses.

Richard.

 

[JChenault]

I have been doing a lot of looking around and Philips Selecon is getting ready to release a new fixture PL1 to go with their PL3 and PL4 fixtures. We have been playing with their prototype fixtures at my supplier's office and a trade show they were presenting them at and WOW... these are nice fixtures. The PL1 will be a drop in replacement for the S4 Jr and the PL4 looks to be a very nice replacement for the Sr. Unfortunately, the PL4 looks to be way too big for my space, but I am going to be bringing a couple in to try out as soon as I can (trying to budget to buy some next season).


Richard.

Richard

I am personally leery of the Philips Selecon units where metamerism is concerned. My understanding is that all of the Phillips PL series lights use the same RGBW chip. This means that getting good color rendering on costumes and faces is not possible. Please before you consider an RGBW version of a fixture as your primary source, prepare a swatch board with a number of different fabrics in various colors on it. Take it to the dealer. Shine any incandescent on the board, then shine the LED unit. I think you will find that the swatch board just does not look good under the LED unit compared to the Incandescent.

Now the ETC has a lot more colors in there so the problem is reduced. I have not done any personal comparisons so I don't have a strong feel for how much of an issue it is for front light. I do find it interesting that ETC is promoting the idea of mixing incandescent and LED sources, not using solely LED for faces, etc.

 

[rhatfield]

Richard

I am personally leery of the Philips Selecon units where metamerism is concerned. My understanding is that all of the Phillips PL series lights use the same RGBW chip. This means that getting good color rendering on costumes and faces is not possible. Please before you consider an RGBW version of a fixture as your primary source, prepare a swatch board with a number of different fabrics in various colors on it. Take it to the dealer. Shine any incandescent on the board, then shine the LED unit. I think you will find that the swatch board just does not look good under the LED unit compared to the Incandescent.

Now the ETC has a lot more colors in there so the problem is reduced. I have not done any personal comparisons so I don't have a strong feel for how much of an issue it is for front light. I do find it interesting that ETC is promoting the idea of mixing incandescent and LED sources, not using solely LED for faces, etc.

Thank you for your input. You are correct that Philips is using the same LED tech for all of their instruments. When we get our demo units into the space, I will be getting our wardrobe department involved. With our current tops we have noticed a difference, but we certainly do want to make sure the fixtures we select as our final product works well with our costumes and actors. I have seen enough turkeys in the LED lines that I refuse to commit to a fixture until I am able to evaluate it in my space and get the opinions of my team, including wardrobe.

I think your suggestion is a very good suggestion regardless if the venue and fixture you are looking at. You should always preview them in the proper context to ensure they are truly going to work for your space. Every house is different and has its own challenges. Ours is that we actually have a short ceiling with an audience that is sitting on the actors' laps it seems. Way less forgiving than a box Proc stage (the other venue I do work at).

On another note though; As far as a Cyc light, I found the Selecon to be an absolute dream to work with. It is an amazing little fixture.