Vintage Lighting Is anybody still using Kliegl lighting fixtures ?

[WooferHound]

I work at the Von Braun Center in Huntsville Alabama USA
VBC Concert Hall

Our theater has recently been remodeled. We are doing shows in there now even though the construction is not finished yet. Our lighting system has been upgraded considerably. went from 325 circuits and 72 dimmers through a giant hot patch, to 480 dimmers/circuits. Also went from an Expression console to a 60 fader Element console, although it hasn't arrived yet. While we have these really nice upgrades, there are no plans to get any new lighting fixtures.

Our main instruments are Kliegl lights with a buncha Altman and Colortran lights thrown in there too. We do have a few Source 4 PARs but not a real meaningful number. I was just wondering if anyone was still using any Kliegl lighting in thier theater?

I have included a few pictures. Everything is really dusty and dirty because of the recent construction.
1- Longthrow Kliegls in our 2nd Cove, These are 3 feet long and 10 inches in diameter
2- The second cove with 32 Longthrow 10 degree fixtures hanging
3- Medium throw fixture in the first cove
4- Short throw fixture in the first cove
5- Our Lighting storage area under the stage

 

[DuckJordan]

I work at the Von Braun Center in Huntsville Alabama USA
VBC Concert Hall

Our theater has recently been remodeled. We are doing shows in there now even though the construction is not finished yet. Our lighting system has been upgraded considerably. went from 325 circuits and 72 dimmers through a giant hot patch, to 480 dimmers/circuits. Also went from an Expression console to a 60 fader Element console, although it hasn't arrived yet. While we have these really nice upgrades, there are no plans to get any new lighting fixtures.

Our main instruments are Kliegl lights with a buncha Altman and Colortran lights thrown in there too. We do have a few Source 4 PARs but not a real meaningful number. I was just wondering if anyone was still using any Kliegl lighting in thier theater?

I have included a few pictures. Everything is really dusty and dirty because of the recent construction.
1- Longthrow Kliegls in our 2nd Cove, These are 3 feet long and 10 inches in diameter
2- The second cove with 32 Longthrow 10 degree fixtures hanging
3- Medium throw fixture in the first cove
4- Short throw fixture in the first cove
5- Our Lighting storage area under the stage

looking for a home for some of them? Unfortunately the year before I got to the University they removed most of their old fixtures (still have a few altman 360s not 360Qs). But they used some Kliegls all the way up to 2009.

 

[ship]

Anything wrong pronounced in keeping the Kliegls going to perform as per design? Yes as you might suspect there is more efficient fixtures out there now, but if they function within design specification for your shows and are in good condition, keep using them - once cleaned and blown off.

No immediate necessity to budget for replacing them, and when you do, ensre they go into stock for big shows needs a few years or at least giving away to a good home in need of them. This given, only by the name you question a need of replacement. I expect that if only of name brand, there is no need of replacement. Could be fine enough for your needs or five year plan for cost effective replacement.

 

[derekleffew]

I personally haven't used a 1355 or 1357 since 1984, but as ship said, if they make light out of one end, they're better than nothing.

Can you post more/better pictures of these?

Along with some details? Are they Kliegl, Major, Electro Controls, or something else?

 

[mstaylor]

Definitely not ECs, possibly Kliegels. I will check the hall that I have a show in this week that still use some.

 

[WooferHound]

Yes , Those 8 inch fresnels are definitely Kliegls, I should be able to get more pics of them tomorrow. We use them on every show, but it takes a lot of them even at 1000w to get a decently bright wash. They are primarily used on our 1st electric.

My complaints with the Kliegl lights are many:

• Not a sharp focus
• Shutters don't do sharp angles
• Flair lights up the areas beyond the shutter cuts
• Barrel with shutters is not able to rotate
• Uneven Beam coverage
• Hard to optimize the bulb in the focal point
• Large klunky design

The one thing that I like about them is that they are lightweight.
Here is another pic of our Storage area . . .

 

[dramatech]

There is a Community College in our town, that had it's theatre built in 1977. The first drama professor didn't do much in the way of shows. He just retired and the new drama professor is doing lot's of shows.The school just changed to a state college. These actions have really changed the life of the one man tech department.
The production manager of our community theatre is directing "Guys and Dolls" for the college. He has involved many of us from the community theatre.
Much to my surprise, upon arriving at the college, is that all of their lighting instruments are from when the building was built, and they look just like the ones that are posted in the pics on this thread.
Lucky for the theatre, they upgraded the dimming system from an EC 36 dimmer/ 200 patch that was driven by an AMX192 to analog converter, and that in turn driven by a DMX to AMX converter. The new system is two full ETC Sensor racks for 192 dimmers.
For the show of Guys and dolls, we have loaned them 22 instruments, mostly Src4s and some scrollers.
They are pretty excited to be working with such "NEW" technology.

 

[WooferHound]

Our 1st cove is mostly a mix of Altman and Colortran with a few Kliegs for use as specials. We get 8 or 10 Broadway shows a year and 80 percent of them will completely replace our 1st cove with their Source 4 road-lights.

 

[WooferHound]

Can you post more/better pictures of these?
View attachment 3973
Along with some details? Are they Kliegl, Major, Electro Controls, or something else?

Here are the pictures and details that Derek requested for the 8 inch Kliegl lights.

1. The front, needs 2 safeties, one is for the oversized gel frame
2. The back and the side showing the Spot/Flood adjustment
3. After swinging the lens away you can see the inside
4. Cool air vent on the back featuring a Kliegl "K"
5. Label on the side of the yoke with the details

 

[PeteEngel]

So, those look like 8" or 10" fresnels. a classic. it's still hard to find a better fresnel. but they are old and clunky for sure. i've worked in a few theaters that had all these fixtures. mostly 1970's design.
for the extra flare out of the leko's, check the lenses. they might be stepped lenses. there should be black paint on the step to eliminate some of that flare. if there isn't... i would think a high temp paint would do. those suckers are a Pain to clean and bench focus. sourcing parts is harder and harder as time goes on too. Money is always tight, but those things are 35 years old if they are a day. my suggestion would be to do an electrical audit on them. the lamps are 1000 watts and probably expensive now. the output of the fixture, the fact that less wattage units will give you more output AND more fixtures per dimmer, and the simple lack of efficiency and massive electrical draw should work to help convince the budget people to start looking for money for current technology fixtures. this may take a while of course, but quite frankly, when my old Kliegl fixtures died (mostly it was the reflector and sockets) i would campaign for new fixtures and make the old Kleigls into ash trays. those fixtures are like their dimmers. they work for a long time, but when they go, they go. have fun with the budget hunt.

 

[ship]

Yea... I'm opposed to Pete's boat anchor and just replace them type of thought.

Circle K Lekos... Got any spare lampholders and lenses? Got two in my garage at the moment missing parts. Also have an 8" Fresnel in the photo that I’m yet to get to. Got a spare lampholder for it? They are indeed being worked on for my museum but back when I was doing lighting, I would make the best use of them I could.

The heck is that scoop in your photo off to the upper left?

Not a sharp focus
Shutters don't do sharp angles
Flair lights up the areas beyond the shutter cuts
Barrel with shutters is not able to rotate
Uneven Beam coverage
Hard to optimize the bulb in the focal point
Large klunky design


Shutters in not doing sharp angles, see the shutter note and possibly a nope and disadvantage. Flair, yea they would some. Rotating barrel... while Kliegl invented the concept with the #1165 series in like 1936, somewhere the rotating barrel got lost until ETC brought back in the early 90's. Beam coverage is a question of bench focus as with that huge hole in the reflector and yes hard to optimize. Klunky yes. On the other hand if your shutters are trash, it's possible to re-design them in say being more slender in the handle perhaps for a bit more shutter cut. This in re-surfacing the old ones or in making new.

Fair enough in boat anchor argument but when is the last time they got a good service call and or to what extent was this done - shutter re-surfacing? Just split open one of the same Leko’s in my garage for the first time and I’m noting that it’s hinged but without a gate reflector and at the center of the reflector it’s seemingly darker than the rest of the reflector is. Also a lot of rust given no gate reflector. Shutters are thick thus shouldn’t be deformed and should clean up well but we are talking about a 2.1/2" gate for 7.1/4" Ellipsoidal reflector size behind it. TBA if you want a possible gate reflector assembly added to it which could improve output. Be some amount of time as mine are seriously lacking parts, or send me a fixture to try it on (off line.)

Some cleaning and re-surfacing plus coating and I think your current Lekos while difficult to deal with still in point, your audience won’t complain about on the next show. Sure... this is an inefficient fixture - especially now that I cracked one open. Question now overall becomes service/maintenance in improving output some, this verses budget of say one at a time replacing and swaping them out. This given you still have to service what you have in use and make the best out of them, just not a crutial thing and still having old stock available for need. I think over other things the place could use the money for, these fixtures have a bit more time in them. One or two per year replaced as a five or ten year plan goal in budget is easier to get than oveall replacement if they work and nobody’s complained yet other than the end users. Make magik with what you have, than imagine the possibilities! Or didn’t past designers make magic with what they had?

If seriously in-balance the S-4 fixtures, go long life and even 120v long life for the S-4 and they should match up on stage and play nice with the other gear. Save the higher output lamps for gobo's and specials. You have an intensity and even on the 8" RSC based Fresnels, its not very efficient. Sufficient as back than, yes. Only now with the S-4 that you can tell the difference. No need to replace the line to match up with the new, seemingly only a need to make the new match up with the old and all will be bright again.

 

[PeteEngel]

well, yeah they should all be replaced eventually. 35 years is a good life for any fixture, and since they renovated the facility i find it a bit short sighted that the fixture package wasn't addressed, but that's just me. i have no knowledge of their situation. but i didn't suggest tossing them willy nilly. a well thought out budget plan including an electrical audit that allows for replacement of the fixtures through attrition is less painful, monetarily, than a total replacement, especially after a renovation. and it shows fiscal responsibility as well as design insight to the budget minders. i'm all for using your fixtures for as long as reasonably possible, but there does come a time when a crew spends more time maintaining old gear than is reasonably acceptable, especially gear that is hard to find parts for and service and the company is no longer in business. one can take self sufficiency too far, to the detriment of look and design among other things. and, if this is a small house, those old Kliegl fixtures are loud. the extensive metal work gives off loud popping as the fixtures heat and cool (as another point).
Use them as long as you feel comfortable but it is a prudent course to start working on a replacement schedule.
just an opinion.

 

[epimetheus]

Rudder Auditorium at Texas A&M University, College Station was originally a Kliegl house I believe. When I attended (2001-2005) they still had (60) 6K dimmers and a huge hot patch. Most of the instrument inventory had been replaced with S4's, but the box booms still had Kliegl's, not sure what model though.

 

[WooferHound]

Circle K Lekos... Got any spare lampholders and lenses? Got two in my garage at the moment missing parts. Also have an 8" Fresnel in the photo that I’m yet to get to. Got a spare lampholder for it? They are indeed being worked on for my museum but back when I was doing lighting, I would make the best use of them I could.

Ship . . .
Do you really need some parts ?

 

[ship]

Ship . . .
Do you really need some parts ?

Well yes! only the most important parts. These fixtures before trashed were stripped of lenses, spacers, retaining rings, even a lens train, and lamp caps. Even a yoke and it's knobs in one case. Thinking more that these two are also spare parts as these fixtues are commonly available on E-Bay. Still though off line... if I can get parts to fix at least one up for the museum, that would be cool even if I don't own these and if off E-Bay I would.

(Good news is that I might have another rental for some of the old lights - this time for the front window of a Chicago "Gold Coast" Christmas window display. This time as opposed to display space, it would be for real rental and I have a $75.00 Fresnel lens to pay off, much less to justify the latest "win" to the Wife that told me no more this week. (But it was so cool.) Still waiting on the tour rental of them as often expressed for interest and in consideration TBA. At that point some go out on tour, funding is established.)

Back to the topic, Long ago in a past theater I switched to the HX-600 lamp. Couldn't do it right away but with time the switch was done. We had budgets of like $100.00 per show and made it work - this given I had a network for donated raw materials and give aways or donations to pool from established. A single sheet of gel needed was sufficient to weigh against buying more glue in that tight of a budget. Also had a five year plan for that theater and later ones pre-priced out and listed as ready to fund raise or go projects. Anyone that has serviced old lights recognizes that they are less efficient and not as good in design. Good that you are not in a rush to push a budget in going all new though. This given all the budget type of things. Lasted for 35 years, can last a few more or be replaced one by one in gaining spare parts.

Look towards fixture refinishing posts in hints such as how to say shave up to 1/4" off a bad shutter and re-surface it sufficient that it's still useful. Don't always need new parts and even in the 70's the Kliegl's were still built like tanks. Also most parts one might need other than castings were standardized or could be made to fit. As with a different fixture worked on, you get a 6" lens and the proper sandpaper for sanding it down and it's now 5.3/4". A few tools and special servicing materials for use with them and you can keep stuff working a really long time.

Beyond that is the educational factor for all keeping the things working. Experience in servicing a Kliegl...the S-4 is compariatively easy. You also get a healthy respect for the old and new in dealing with either or both. I was raised on the old gear, think it made me a better designer - though have not done that in a while, but know as a tech person I have learned a lot from old gear.

Hope it helps. There with you, keep theater vibrant but make magic with what you can also.

The heck is that scoop in your photo off to the upper left?

 

[WooferHound]

I really don't know about that scoop. I'll be in there this weekend and will be sure to get a better look and post a description then.

 

[ship]

I really don't know about that scoop. I'll be in there this weekend and will be sure to get a better look and post a description then.

Only need one for the museum. If you have spare parts, a fixture for parts could be an idea. On the other hand, I note another on E-Bay today so it' not a big deal in buying one and these being spare parts for you.

 

[WooferHound]

The heck is that scoop in your photo off to the upper left?

I finally got a look at that Scoop that is pictured above.
It is a regular Kliegl scoop which somehow got so hot from the lamp that all the grey paint flaked off of it leaving the bare metal showing. The inside of the shell was blackened considerably.

 

[Les]

Man, if you guys ever get the go ahead to move away from those 6x9's, post them up here in the classifieds. I could really use me about 5 or 6 of those.

 

[avkid]

Man, if you guys ever get the go ahead to move away from those 6x9's, post them up here in the classifieds. I could really use me about 5 or 6 of those.

Want some Kliegl 6x12's?
I have 6 in good working order.