Lens train functionality

The Guthrie theater hangs entirely PARcan front light? I would have to see that to believe it.
 
1. I never said you couldn't sure PARs as front light (my blog says discourage, not that it can't be done), I said that ERS units do it better. I stand by that.
2. I would like to sit down with that LD and ask why he bought all those PARs for front light instead of ERS units. I would like to hear the explaination.
3. Which theater are you talking about? The proscenium space or the thrust? PARs as fronts in a thrust are much easier to justify because there is no "front light" per say, and spill on scenery is often unavoidable (or very difficult to avoid).
4. I wonder if the thrust is a true thrust or a hybrid. I know at the Wyly here in Dallas, Source4 PARs are often used as fill in thrust settings, but the closer you get to their arch, the front light turns completely into ERS units and PARs are relegated to top/side/back/very high front accents.
 
I have to agree with the majority of the comments so far. ERS' are great, but you have to have the space to have the right throw distances. in tight ares, blackboxes, real intimate venues, it's better with a mix of fixtures. I have NEVER had a problem with pars being uncontrollable as front light, throw a top hat or barndoors on them and they are plenty easy to work with. if your front of house is 12 feet away from those lights, and ERS just can't cover the area as well.

You said you don't walk into professional theatres and see pars as front light... I'd argue with that again different lights for different venues. for a huge 700 seat theatre, of course you don't see pars for the front light there because from that distance they are worthless. Comparing something like the S4 50 at 10 feet you're looking at a 9 foot diameter and for a s4 WFL par you're at 9.5 feet, but for foot candles you're at 350 for the 50 degree and 490 for the par. so there are lot of factors that come into play and sometimes that difference in brightness could be a determining factor. yes and ERS can do a lot but they aren't perfect for every venue. I don't care how wide a throw something has, in the last theatre I worked, there simply wasn't enough space in the ceiling (no fly space) to hold them. we could fill the pipe with lights touching almost barrel to barrel, and then throw side arms inbetween those and put a par on it because in the low ceiling space we couldn't fit an extra ERS in there.

there are very few FACTS when it comes to what certain lights are for, sure you can cite what something was designed for and statisics on fixtures but ultimately in this industry people try lots of crazy things and every time you say " THIS light is perfect for THIS" someone else will come along and say, " well I've used this other light plenty of times doing the exact same thing with the same results" and then cloud all that with personal preferences and it is difficult. I will concede that you feel like PARs as front light are uncontrollable in your experience. My experiences lead me to feel otherwise. personal opinion.
 
You continue to fail to understand that it isn't always about the field and beam angles. The way in which a PAR transmits light is completely different than an ERS, and especially when frost is added, they can be used to evenly cover a large area brightly from a short distance. An ERS, even with an opaque diffusion material, will still be a much smaller source than a S4 PAR or PAR 64. I actually like the Altman StarPAR more than a S4 PAR for a short throw as it can create an even larger source, yet. A reasonable comparison is the illumination of the Sun versus the Moon. Both are relatively small sources compared to the field light could be coming from, but the light from the moon will always be softer and wrap the subject better (the way in which the light comes from both is actually quite the similar, too).

Also, when actors end up 3 feet in front of the lighting tree (which is already against the wall), which will provide better (more even) illumination of them? The PAR. At that distance the PAR can be situated directly above the tree and puts the light source at least 33% further away from the subject of illumination, which buys you quite a bit in terms of coverage.
 
josh88 said:
I have to agree with the majority of the comments so far. ERS' are great, but you have to have the space to have the right throw distances. in tight ares, blackboxes, real intimate venues, it's better with a mix of fixtures. I have NEVER had a problem with pars being uncontrollable as front light, throw a top hat or barndoors on them and they are plenty easy to work with. if your front of house is 12 feet away from those lights, and ERS just can't cover the area as well.

You said you don't walk into professional theatres and see pars as front light... I'd argue with that again different lights for different venues. for a huge 700 seat theatre, of course you don't see pars for the front light there because from that distance they are worthless. Comparing something like the S4 50 at 10 feet you're looking at a 9 foot diameter and for a s4 WFL par you're at 9.5 feet, but for foot candles you're at 350 for the 50 degree and 490 for the par. so there are lot of factors that come into play and sometimes that difference in brightness could be a determining factor. yes and ERS can do a lot but they aren't perfect for every venue. I don't care how wide a throw something has, in the last theatre I worked, there simply wasn't enough space in the ceiling (no fly space) to hold them. we could fill the pipe with lights touching almost barrel to barrel, and then throw side arms inbetween those and put a par on it because in the low ceiling space we couldn't fit an extra ERS in there.

there are very few FACTS when it comes to what certain lights are for, sure you can cite what something was designed for and statisics on fixtures but ultimately in this industry people try lots of crazy things and every time you say " THIS light is perfect for THIS" someone else will come along and say, " well I've used this other light plenty of times doing the exact same thing with the same results" and then cloud all that with personal preferences and it is difficult. I will concede that you feel like PARs as front light are uncontrollable in your experience. My experiences lead me to feel otherwise. personal opinion.
Click to expand...

I am with you Josh. You can really use any light for anything. I have used many lights for many, many things. I simply have 2 points.

1. There is nothing that any other light can do that you can not do with a properly used ERS.

and

2. Other lights can not do things that an ERS can do (for example, a Fresnel can not be a hard edged spot light).

That is all.

Other than that you CAN do anything with anything. I have often used PARs in spaces as front light. Heck I have used those little clip work lights from Home Depot for front light. But in all of those cases I would have given my right ear for some Source4 ERS units. On the other hand, I have never said to myself, "man, I wish I had a ______ (PAR, Fresnel, strip light, cyc light)."

Keep in mind that if you try to use barn doors as shutters you are going to lose a LOT of the output of the PAR (the point of a PAR to begin with). Barn doors are NOT a substitute for shutters on an ERS unit.
 
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jglodeklights said:
You continue to fail to understand that it isn't always about the field and beam angles. The way in which a PAR transmits light is completely different than an ERS, and especially when frost is added, they can be used to evenly cover a large area brightly from a short distance. An ERS, even with an opaque diffusion material, will still be a much smaller source than a S4 PAR or PAR 64. I actually like the Altman StarPAR more than a S4 PAR for a short throw as it can create an even larger source, yet. A reasonable comparison is the illumination of the Sun versus the Moon. Both are relatively small sources compared to the field light could be coming from, but the light from the moon will always be softer and wrap the subject better (the way in which the light comes from both is actually quite the similar, too).

Also, when actors end up 3 feet in front of the lighting tree (which is already against the wall), which will provide better (more even) illumination of them? The PAR. At that distance the PAR can be situated directly above the tree and puts the light source at least 33% further away from the subject of illumination, which buys you quite a bit in terms of coverage.
Click to expand...

You are still stuck using an ERS as an ERS and a PAR as a PAR. In order to truly compare it, you have to use an ERS as a PAR (and yes, it is possible). You have to get outside the box and look at what an instrument can be, rather than what it is.

The size of the unit has nothing to do with the quality of the light. Of course there are situations where an ERS just won't fit. But that doesn't mean the ERS can't do the job, it just means it won't fit. There are time when a Source4 PAR won't fit either. That has nothing to do with if the tool will do the job.

In the case you point out, I can put in a wider ERS, and at 3' I can guarantee that I can get enough punch from it to do the job.
 
I'm pretty sure you misunderstood that I wasn't referring to the physical size of the unit.
 
jglodeklights said:
I'm pretty sure you misunderstood that I wasn't referring to the physical size of the unit.
Click to expand...

Oh, then that post literally made no sense to me. Because with enough room I can get an ERS lens at the same position as a PAR lens, so there is no 33% gain in throw distance.

As far as the sun/moon comparison you are again assuming that an ERS must always act like the sun and a PAR acts like the moon. You are right that a PAR acts like the moon, but an ERS can have the qualities of the sun or the moon, depending on how you use it.
 
By the way I used to say the same things until I designed in two houses. One was a 50 seat thrust and the entire inventory was 24 ETC Source4 ERS units. The other was a 500 seat procenium, who's entire inventory consisted of a good number of different types (360Q, LEKO, Source4) of ERS units.

After that I was completely convinced of the flexibility of ERS units.
 
Esoteric said:
Oh, then that post literally made no sense to me. Because with enough room I can get an ERS lens at the same position as a PAR lens, so there is no 33% gain in throw distance.

As far as the sun/moon comparison you are again assuming that an ERS must always act like the sun and a PAR acts like the moon. You are right that a PAR acts like the moon, but an ERS can have the qualities of the sun or the moon, depending on how you use it.
Click to expand...

I think you really just don't read what I write.
 
I apologize man, I read it, I guess I am just not understanding it.

Sorry.
 
Esoteric said:
1. There is nothing that any other light can do that you can not do with a properly used ERS.

and

2. Other lights can not do things that an ERS can do (for example, a Fresnel can not be a hard edged spot light).

That is all.
Click to expand...

I am sorry, but #1 is simply not true. It may be true that you can use an ERS to get close, to get 80% of the way there, to what another fixture can do, but it just can't replace every instrument in the arsenal. It IS the most versatile fixture, and should probably be the bulk of most theatrical packages, but it is not the best for every application. The differences in optics mean that it cannot put out the punch of a PAR (especially with a saturated color). And the "texture" of the beam is different--some good for some applications, some good for others.

A far cyc is good for cyc lighting because it has an asymmetric reflector that helps create even light on a cyc from a sharp angle of incidence. With enough trouble, you can get pretty good cyc lighting from and ERS, but never the same as cyc lights.

I think I'll give up on this thread now, but please consider this: yes, a theatre with only ERS fixtures could do great lighting, and it would be better to have all ERSs than all PARs or fresnels or whatever. But price is not the ONLY reason to choose a PAR over an ERS for some applications. If I had to pick one type of fixture, I'd pick ERS. But I don't have to pick just one, so I pick the best fixture available for the job in each circumstance.
 
That is cool man. But I have pics of cycs and I bet that no one could tell me which were lit by cyc lights and which were lit by ERS units. And the same thing applies in real life.

You are absolutely correct however, that it takes more work to turn an ERS into a cyc light than it does to use a cyc light to light a cyc.

But if I am not using the cyc and I have a cyc light, I have a useless instrument. On the other hand, if I have an ERS I can now do other things with it.

If I had an unlimited number of fixtures, then sure I would have tons of ERS units, PARs, Fresnels, Strips, Cycs, etc.

But given a limited inventory, I would (and do) start with tons of ERS units.
 
hehe see what I said earlier about someone coming about and saying they've done things? without a cyc I've used Selecon Hui's
Selecon Lighting - Hui Cyc
those little guys are awesome, you can create some pretty cool effects if you use them differently, and they are boring old cyc lights, just used outside of the box therefore, not useless ;-)

all this being said, I'm a bit worried in my new space (though I haven't been able to look too much into the inventory yet) that they don't have enough ERS units in stock and that I'm going to have to get them to buy more, because I don't want to have to rent every single time.
 
Cyc Lights are not useless for other functions! As has already been demonstrated in other threads, they can be used for top and front light. The asymmetric design of many of their reflectors works well from front light, especially at close distances, where even lighting of the subject is required. One designer I recently worked with used two four cell/two circuit Far CYCs on 1E to create super even L161 and G925 front washes on pure white set. You claim that I am thinking of an ERS only as an ERS and a PAR only as a PAR, but you are the one calling certain fixtures useless if not used for their original purpose. I have, on multiple occasions, used PARs to create a patterned wash with gobos I manufactured (granted, this is actually a rather old technique originally developed for film). I have used ERS's to create back washes and to wash the entire stage with a color. With proper care, most lighting fixtures can be utilized to fit many needs (with obvious exceptions such as a CYC light creating a small focused area from a distance).

Back to the original question of this thread, though. The ERS was developed for a specific use; projection. Unlike other fixtures, an ERS can take a surface (such as a shutter or pattern) and transmit a sharp image of it in a useful package. However, this means that certain properties must be in place. Light rays must come from one source for maximum clarity. As such, each point of the lenses in an ERS is designed focus light from one point of the gate (the projection media comprised of the shutters or the pattern). Physically impossible, but that is the ideal situation. The lens of a PAR, however, is designed to take rays of light from multiple directions and ideally focus them straight forward. Obviously also physically impossible, but this means that it projects light in a way that, even with alteration, an ERS never can. Additionally, the area that a typical ERS is emitting light from is smaller than a S4 PAR, a PAR 64 or 56, or a StarPAR. Both these facts make the output considerably different in quality between the two units. To say that you can make the output of an ERS look EXACTLY like that of a PAR is a complete fallacy. It is akin to saying that it diesel and gasoline engines can operate in the exact same manner.
 
jglodeklights said:
You claim that I am thinking of an ERS only as an ERS and a PAR only as a PAR, but you are the one calling certain fixtures useless if not used for their original purpose.
Click to expand...

Yes I am, because it works one way and not the other. An ERS can fulfill all those functions. But a cyc light is pretty much useless without a cyc (and while there may be very limited exceptions, they are just that, exceptions), and a PAR is useless as a gobo projector. However an ERS is useful no matter what you need to do with it.

That is the whole point. ERS units are very flexible, other units are not.

If I had a choice in a space I had never been in between 10 ERS and 10 PARs/Fresnels and 4 cyc lights or 24 ERS I know which I would choose.
 
josh88 said:
hehe see what I said earlier about someone coming about and saying they've done things? without a cyc I've used Selecon Hui's
Selecon Lighting - Hui Cyc
those little guys are awesome, you can create some pretty cool effects if you use them differently, and they are boring old cyc lights, just used outside of the box therefore, not useless ;-)

all this being said, I'm a bit worried in my new space (though I haven't been able to look too much into the inventory yet) that they don't have enough ERS units in stock and that I'm going to have to get them to buy more, because I don't want to have to rent every single time.
Click to expand...

I understand. Like I said, I have never been in a situation and said "I wish I had a PAR" or "Man, I wish I could trade this Source4 for a Fresnel", but I have said plenty of times "Anyone want to trade a PAR/Fresnel/Cyc light for an ERS?"

I have also lit entire shows with garden lights and work lights from Home Depot. That doesn't mean that I go around specing 500W garden lights when I do lighting installs.

This has been fun, but no one is changing their mind, and that is okay. But it is getting tiring. I stand by my assertion, but thanks for the input guys.

I have a script to read.
 
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Honestly, to me it seems like its useless to try and explain it to you, and I hope you decide against putting that an ERS is good for everything in your blog. It also seems like a case of "Since I've never done it, it must not happen ever" syndrome. The fact is any light can be used in almost any situation. A cyc light is not useless in every situation without a cyc (have you seen my latest lighting design? over half that stage was washed with cycs) I'd also prefer fresnels for 20' throws just for the fact its a nicer blend than I can achieve with an ERS. Now I wouldn't use a fresnel from a 30'+ throw unless It was for a very specific reason, but I also wouldn't use an ERS for a soft diffuse edge from less than 20'.

I've worked everything from corporate shows to theater, to concerts... and btw explain why concerts still use PAR's for their front lighting if they can use an ERS? I'm not talking about small one off concerts. I'm talking about touring productions such as hinder, disturbed, and the like.

I'm not sure what your background is and where and how you've worked, and thats not my judgement call to make, It just seems like a large misleading article, that will end up either loosing followers or Mis-educating the ones who stick around.

What purpose is this blog trying to achieve? This would probably help us figure out what kind of info you are trying to get out the audience.
 
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